OP: Non-Ethical Porn

I have seen my share of porn and while an occasional look of shock might be intriguing to the fact that she's getting more than she can handle, any porn that makes its point in causing the pain or getting off on the discomfort just isn't my thing

hot-texan

Posted: 03 Oct 08:09

Much, perhaps most, porn is demeaning and harmful to women. The faked orgasms, face shots and positions are all designed for the stimulation of men and, regrettably, leads many young men to expect women to respond and participate as they see them in porn flicks. Witness the many questions here over the years showing the unrealistic expectations of young men. Perhaps my favorite example is the so-called "lesbian porn" that leads one to believe it depicts realistic lesbian sex when, in actuality, most of the poses or positions would make it impossible for female enjoyment or, even, participation. Any woman, whether or not she has participated in lesbian sex, recognizes that this stuff is not for the enjoyment of women but, rather, caters to the puerile voyeur in men.

My introduction to abusive sex as you first describe was in the reading of the Story of O, the French novel depicting the training of a woman into servicing men's extreme tastes. As a group the lesbian activists at university read and discussed the horrors of this novel. It had not been released in an authorized English translation so we were left with the French and some poor underground translations. Naturally, some of us went a bit deeper.

The label "sado-masochist" is derived from the name of the Marquis de Sade, the French author/philosopher/politician/libertine most famous for his "sadistic" (his name again) descriptions of sex, most of which were written in prison and came directly from his (sick) imagination. That was in the late 1700s.

No, Red, this is not new. There have been cultures based on sexual abuse of women; others on complete subjugation of women; many in which we, not the male libido, are blamed for all social ills and blasphemy in whatever passes for religion in those cultures. Simply stated, there are those who get their kicks from demonstrating their superiority as they seek to dump, literally, their essence into those same "inferiors."

Sure, there is soft porn which is mildly amusing in many respects; there is erotica which celebrates the female form; too often these cross the line into women servicing men however the mane fantasizes. It not only demeans us, it trains whole generations of young men as to how we "should" be treated.

It is scary, very scary, because if some did not find it appealing this approach would not be seen. In fact, it has been with us since before history and spreads more easily with mass media - movable type, underground news papers, photography, motion pictures, and, now, the internet injecting it directly into veins of whole generations. It cannot be legislated out of existence (witness de Sades' thirty years in prison, it can only be educated away and god know that is not being done.

Brandye

Posted: 03 Oct 08:09

one of the tube sites that i occasionally watch porn on had an advertisement on the side from one of the main stream internet porn companies brazzers. i never took an interest in looking at it until after reading this post. i looked at the free clip and the storyline was rather repulsive. the husband comes home and finds that his wife has left him for another woman. that woman once alone with him confronts him and tells him to leave because this her house now. fast forward the man is mad that his relationship is over and takes it out on the new woman. he rips off her clothes, slaps her on the face and rapes her to which i quote the woman "i think i have been fu**ed straight."

the perversion doesn't end there, i have seen porn where the sexual content is portrayed as incest. oddly the actors seem to mostly be from eastern europe. also in a documentary i saw porn has a lot of very racist themes. black men taking advantage of white women, latinas having sex to get american citizenship or cross the border, and asian women being submissive.

also after looking at this post i did my first search on bdsm. i wish i hadn't because what they portray is well sadistic. the room was completely black except the light on the girl. she had her limbs bound as she was "whipped" and screaming in pain, she has red marks all over her body. it was awful and disturbing to watch someone who you presume is in so much pain. after looking at one of the close up pictures is was clear that not a single inch of her body had broken skin. so on this site they are only portraying violence. below there were comments and there was a mix of positive feedback and also negative saying things like "i hope you people that like this stuff burn in hell". but there were also women that said they are turned on by this stuff, so there is a minority where both parties enjoy this act. men are also depicted as sex slaves and have their penis and balls squeezed. i have also noticed that aggressive bdsm is most popular in areas where death metal music with links to devil worship/anti christian lyrics is popular such as Norway. to no surprise the video i described came from that area.

RR you also have to take into account what weird things people like including the women. on the morning show i listen to a question was brought up by a man who's wife wants to fulfill a rape fantasy with him. he didn't know what to do because he is against rape with every fiber in his body, and couldn't play such a role. urinating and defecating on people is also a fetish for some. what some classify as sick is not to another. many believe that sexually open marriages and homosexual acts are perversions in society. the envelope seems to be getting pushed further just like every other media.

big916

Posted: 03 Oct 08:10

Brandye, what you've written is very sad, but I can't deny it's true. It's just that; I thought "regular" pornography was worse enough. It generally makes me feel sick watching it. But this... is simply so horrific. I can't think of other words than rape, staged or acted or not. Usually: we say rape is not about sex, it's about control. But what if the concept of sex and control get merged? What if that becomes definition that's spread throughout society by such visuals? Like you said; in some cultures it is...

I am time and time again surprised how even full grown adults take pornography as example. And it does make you question the example that's being set and therefor spreads through our culture. Since pornography seems to become the only example of what "real" sex is supposed to be in our society, it gets very creepy... It makes me think of a documentary I saw on how elephants behave. Within a group, the youngsters seem to copy their sexual behavior from what they see. When the matriarch of the herd generally chases away aggressive bulls (either before or after harm was done to her herd), the young males are more inclined to become friendly and the young females more inclined to resist aggressive behavior, when they're grown-up. When the matriarch allows aggressive mating, the group becomes accepting of it, the youngsters are more inclined to copy that behavior. It could even lead to severe injuries on the females. If that "works" the same within an intelligent herd-race as we humans are, only the actual physical example is missing, won't it just as easily be replaced by visual?

Big, I deliberately wrote "people" instead of "men". Though I think it's safe to say the majority of porn-consumers is male. I understand the different sexual preferences. Like I said: I consider myself rather open-minded. As long as these are consenting adults that take mutual enjoyment in the act, I see no harm, except for possibly health risk in some cases. In this case, I doubt the former. And I also become to doubt the "harm" of it to society as described above.

The thing I referred to are German men abusing East-European women, which immediately rises my suspicion of women trapped in desperation. Anyone who's ever been to such countries, will see poor women on the side of high ways getting picked up by large West-European cars. And those women are not your typical prostitutes, they often don't even dress or act provocative (mostly arms crossed in front of their chest as protective gesture). I saw a woman there on the side of the road lovingly taking care of a baby. As a BMW appeared, she quickly put the child in the bushes, between some rags that were probably her home. And she got into the car. I can't imagine anything but pure desperation to do that.

RedRoses

Posted: 03 Oct 08:10

Misogyny has existed for 10,000 years so far and legislation will mitigate some of its effects but not change it. In fact, so ingrained is misogyny that women will attack those trying to do away with this hatred. We think of all of it as 'normal' or 'how it was meant to be'.

Men resent women because they find women overwhelmingly attractive and fear that women use their attractiveness as a weapon against men. Men resent women because women control sex by saying no. Men resent women because he needs her to reproduce and wants to assure himself that the child is his. Men resent women because she is the keeper of his secrets and the safe harbor for his emotions, hopes and dreams and this makes him vulnerable.

Pornography reflects the society at large. Some say it serves as an outlet. The Marquise de Sade wrote Justine which is one of the most boring books on the planet as well as possibly being one of the sickest but he was also making a socio-political point about corruption. Its counterpart Venus in Furs is also boring but not sick. Both of them were written by men. Instead of reading that muck, read Are Women Human? by Dorothy Sayers.

Fear in men breeding the need to control and the need to punish women.
Misogyny is the enemy.

EvilEvilKitten

Posted: 03 Oct 08:10

Rape in lawless countries where it is so common it is to be expected.

Prostitution in the jade mines where they will die from AIDS. (do NOT buy jade).

Child brides, forced 'marriages', how polygamy usually works, and the whole sex trafficking business.

EvilEvilKitten

Posted: 03 Oct 08:11

Though I understand the reasons stated, I find it very sad that misogyny should be the result of it...

I mean, let's turn it around: If women fear men take control of us, because men "rule" the (economical/political) world? If we fear them to use their physiques as a weapon on us? If they deny us their seed? If they deny our children a father? If we fear them to "own" us? If they desert us, while all we've done is love? Are those the reasons for women to start hating men, just because they are men? And therefor we'd demean them and show our superiority by punishing and (sexually) abusing them? Even find it sexually stimulating to do so? :confused:

Women are no angels. There are female murderers, abusers and rapists. Though statistically outnumbered. How many do commit such crimes with despise of men in general as motive? I know men-haters, but that's mostly expressed verbally and by attitude, apart from the occasional spit on the floor. Also by my experience; they are not as much a response to the issues above, but as an (excessive) response to the abuse/rape/oppression of women by men. Or in response to personal experience of something traumatic like this happening to themselves or relatives. Circle of destruction complete? :(

RedRoses

Posted: 03 Oct 08:11

Yes, women can do all of those things, RR, but the 1% feminine evil doesn't even come close to the 99% done by men. MOST men versus SOME women.

Have you heard of "child bridegrooms" ?? Where have men been married off at 13 because he might get raped by a bunch of women and thus, being 'damaged goods', would never be married and a drain upon the family's resources and a stain upon the family's honor because he was no longer a virgin? Where can a man be stoned to death for just talking with a woman? He was raped by her because he wore his pants too tight? How many men enter a bar full of women and turn around and walk right back out because they felt threatened - thought they might be perceived as being prey? (Yes, I have walked out of a bar full of men just because it was all men and therefore too dangerous a situation.)

What do you do, RR, every day to ensure your personal safety? Think about it. Can you go anywhere without even having to consider the question?

I adore men but that does not mean that I am blind to the problems in this world.

The answer is to just accept that we have gender and then it go - think of us, all of us, as HUMAN BEINGS FIRST.

EvilEvilKitten

Posted: 03 Oct 08:11

EEK, that's basically what I meant to say. I just wanted to take the sharp edges of it, by recognizing women are not saints.

It just so happens I've a while ago bought the June episode of National Geographic Magazine that discusses child brides. Actually: I bought it for that article. It depends on the country and even in many it's officially illegal, but there are girls of 5 being married to boys of 9. Girls of 9 married to men of 50. Girls of such young age being wheeled into hospitals, because their entire organstructure was ruptured during their first intercourse and they die from it. Girls of barely in their teens in labor. The first thing nurses ask, is if they know a baby is inside them, if they know how giving birth is done. Many don't know any of it. Just like no-one had told them what sex was and it was forced upon them. The men do know, the boys are told and even get to practice on "spoiled goods". The birth itself again is leading to all kinds of tragedy, as her body isn't ready yet, including death of both mother and child. Or should we say: both children. Girls being picked up by the police, as they ran away severely abused or mutilated by their husbands. If the husband is ever brought in for questions, he won't be trialed and she's at least escorted back to him...

I know it all happens, EEK. I'm not blind either. I'm just not understanding how one could hurt another human-beng in such awful ways, even take joy in it, take pleasure in watching it. I'm still shocked by it, every time I hear another story or see another news-flash.

I've lived half my life s far with the notion of sex being a demeaning necessity. With the knowledge of my body being dangerous to me, as it puts me out there as prey. There have been times I thought it to be inevitable; rape was luring and a third time they would succeed at it. On top of that: I was raised to despise men. I was taught from an early age to stand above them and to watch their every move with eagles' eyes. But somehow; it seems to be my nature to think of people as human beings first. And as humans as primarily good. That doesn't mean I don't fear and take precautions. I do. It's just the every day question when fear/protection is reasonable. At some occasions I have been too naive and innocent. At some I've been too careful and frightened. That question has become more answerable to me over the years. Nowadays: I tend to trust my gut on it.

It's a shame though. That you should be protecting yourself from your own kind... Isn't it?

RedRoses

Posted: 03 Oct 08:12

It is a DAMN shame that we have to protect ourselves from each other.

I bought the same magazine for that article as well, RR.

It is my belief that when we permit socities to become centered upon MEN rather than upon HUMAN BEINGS that such situations develop. I have to point out, that women do not use 'power' in the same way men do - because we understand and define 'power' differently - that the reverse would not be true. But since a WOMEN centered society has never existed the point is moot.

You and I have a 'radar' built upon our experiences but others are not so fortunate. You were raised one way and I another but neither way demanded we sacrifice our 'self' to another's whims as the aforementioned child brides have.

And don't even get me started on "female circumcision" because then I'd talk about an overwhelming urge to equip every female on the panet with a loaded Uzi, the training and will to use it, and a license to kill. If males don't think they have a lot to answer for - I have an axe. (you notice they have their heads down now)

Yes, it is a DAMN shame we have to protect ourselves from eachother - esp when we all could be having a lot more FUN!

EvilEvilKitten

Posted: 03 Oct 08:12

wow, that's a pretty big chip on your shoulder, glad I don't live in your neck of the woods

and NO, my head isn't down or hanging low ... don't paint all men with the same brush

hot-texan

Posted: 03 Oct 08:12

It would be nice to see what a women-centered society works like. Can't we just hijack some city or island to try it? :) Though we may need to find a point where to break what has become "normal". Humans are so stubborn at falling back into old behaviors. I know I'm guilty of it ;)

Female circumcision- National Geographic- YouTube (contains some disturbing images). And what I find perhaps the worst of all, are the mothers who were mutilated themselves, that even drag their daughters back to Africa to have it be done on them. That in many cases, it's an elder woman holding the unsterilized knife to make the cuts, in the same way like she was cut once. While other women hold the girl's legs apart, who have been in her place in the past. Brainwashed victims who keep this wheel of destruction spinning.

These people are doing such monstrous things! As much as we see women oppressed, they have come to think of it as normal and participate in it, forcing it upon their society as a collective. Even grandmothers taking her granddaughters secretly, if the mother refuses and tried to end this sickening "tradition". I saw a documentary once (could have been part of the above) of girls waiting for their party. Some party; as they were all circumcised that day. It showed the midwife carefully making preparations, sterilizing all materials. Mom giving her daughter a hug, holding her, telling her it will all be ok. The midwife comforting her, cutting with precision and fast to not make it last any longer than necessary. The girl crying loudly while mom comforts her. Midwife and mom carefully attending to her wounds. Then the girl gets presents and candy and is put on the couch under a blanket, while mom stays with her. Mom says she's so proud of her. How she's been such a big girl. That evening they celebrate, because she is now pure. And some of the girls, though at first in shock of what's just happened, even seem to take pride in it themselves. That's when I saw another generation being born, who will one day do the same to their daughters.

It's so hard to watch, not only because of the horrific mutilation taking place (which wasn't depicted explicitly), but seeing the same way we comfort our kids when they have to go through medical exams or dental repairs or whatever that need to be done. These mothers truly and honestly don't think they're doing wrong to their daughters, they think they do what's best for them. That what makes my stomach turn. When there's no conscious of this being unnecessary, dangerous, harmful and pure mutilation, change is miles away.

I think that's going to be the hard part; getting rid off the legacy and the "normality" that's grown from it.

RedRoses

Posted: 03 Oct 08:13

Chip on my shoulder? LOL Yes, you SHOULD hang your head for what precisely are YOU doing to stop it? Are you even protesting even if ONLY in here? You are not. For the only protest YOU, ht, made, was when you yourself felt 'tarnished'. But perhaps you hadn't ever given this topic a thought? Few men do - until they have a daughter and then contemplate someone else telling his daughter how she should run her life, telling her what she should do etc. Then they become partial feminists.

It is very odd but most men are individualist outwardly rebellious conformists - meaning they see themselves singularly and they like to pose as rule-breakers yet end up toeing the line and supporting the status-quo. Don't think it is just me talking - review the research. Most women are the opposite - as one might well imagine.

RR - that is what happens. The women become convinced that their daughters will not be allowed into heaven unless they're 'cut'. However, there is an organization that is helping communities abandon the practice by facilitating discussion and lending educational support so the communities themselves change their ways themselves. Slowly, it is working.

So there is hope.

EvilEvilKitten

Posted: 03 Oct 08:14

Yes, there is hope! :) Which is why I love supporting organizations such as CARE.

Back to our own little part of the world (although fairly big if combining our societies that have access to that part of the internet ;)). Such pornography that made me start this thread... We can safely say this is something that we as a society are "normalizing". My gut tells me it shouldn't be normal. My gut tells me it is absurd that sex with animals, even depicted in cartoons, is illegal here. Whereas women in pornography are depicted treated lower than beasts.

Rationalizing (since knowledge= ammo ;)): the point of porn being an outlet, may be fair. I know there is research claiming legal prostitution makes rape-rates drop. Is there too such research about effects of pornography? And if so; of which kind of pornography? Is it "good" research? The point of porn setting wrong examples may very well do more harm, than the outlet does good. I've heard about "pornification" of society, it just usually takes a while digging to find the good solid grounds for such claims. There must be respectable research on the influence of porn on society or sexual development; any good studies that we know of?

Brandye, could you elaborate some more on how to educate this away?
Since education leads to consciousness, which leads to newly formed attitudes, we can just as much change our own ways and society!

RedRoses

Posted: 03 Oct 08:14

i don't believe society is normalizing this kind pornography or real sex practices. normal by definition means that an action or belief is standard among most. this is definitely a minority that watches or enjoys this. we misuse the word normal as stating something that is accepted rather than how many engage in it. for example homosexuality is not normal because most humans do not have sex with the same gender. what is normal is that we believe that a person should be able to chose who they want to have a relationship with.

anyways back to this topic - most men including myself find this porn to be revolting. we want to pleasure women and see that they having a good time. i have noticed that more and more squirt videos are popping up because we as men want to see the woman enjoying herself. orgasms can be faked but they can't fake ejaculations. the downside is that men will come to expect women to ejaculate all the time. i have never let the media influence my thoughts or actions. music and video games get the most heat but fictional films not so much. basically i am just saying that this porn doesn't have the influence you think it does, at least from my perspective as a male and a consumer. the people who do horrible things do them no matter the media they consume. and i can't speak for what you saw RR but what i searched after looking at this thread, the videos were all fictional. and had the standard legal statement that all actors are 18 and over.

big916

Posted: 03 Oct 08:14

Big, you may have seen, I express some ambiguity on this subject, as I feel some contradictions occuring. I can explain to you why. I'll categorize my thoughts below. Though forgive me for not being as complete and structured as I'd like them to be...

I watch movies that depict things I'd never want to experience in real life. It's called something like: happy terror (there is a better term, I'll need to look it up). It's like riding a rollercoaster does to you too. You experience adrenaline or other hormones and feelings, without putting yourself in a risky situation. Still; when I open a homepage of your average free pornsite and start to feel terrible of what I see, up to the sickening depictions that made me start this thread, it makes me question a lot of things...

Monitoring & consumer consciousness
Let's start with something practical that bothers me. Whether this pain is real or real pain is masked by pretending orgasms, there's quite a chance we'll not get to know. Because the distribution of porn via internet is not controlled. Even the production seems not very much controlled by anyone. Example; I've recently learned that by statelaw in California it is forbidden to put semen on skin or other mucous membrane as part of employment. Yet what do we see in porn produced there? Right.

I believe in freedom of profession. Pornstars and prostitutes deserve the rights and protection, just as any other employee. Which is the practical price that comes with legalizing; monitoring. This could be one of the things worth fighting for: if porn is a legalized profession, make sure it stays monitored. At least in the countries where it is produced.

I believe in the freedom of consumers. We're able to ban and make things illegal, but that's either not half way or there, or no where near. The thing that matters is the consciousness of consumers. And just as much as we put up a fight against illegal copying of movies, we could make it part of our prevention policies to warn on what you may be contributing to if you "don't buy certified porn". It's just a question of: do we care enough to do that? People do sometimes seem peculiar to being more interested in protecting economical aspects, in favor of other aspects like safety, health and respectful treatment of other human beings...

Fantasy contradictions & society
Now let's move to the lesser clear domain of the mind. If I say porn is a fantasy played out by actresses, I also recognize that whatever I see can be edited and acted, up to the expression of pleasure or pain. I believe in freedom of sexual expression, as long as it is between consenting adults. I believe I can't tell someone what fantasies to like. And fantasies do not equal reality.

Still, there appears to be a twilight zone between reality and fantasy. Question is: besides the points made above, is it the point that porn is either real or acted? After all; it poses the question of demeaning women and sex in general, to which you can question what concepts of sex, control and women are part of our society. And what the mere existence of pornography says of our society as a whole (as EEK puts it: it's a mirror). That would also say; it's not as much the pornography, it is the society where one should start.

So; we can not blame an attitude towards women and sex on the existence of pornography. We can question to what extend it contributes. In what ways does it actually influence/sustain our attitudes?

By studies of the influence of media, the effects of computergames and movies on aggressive behavior are still debated, yet not proven. It has also become clear that there are ages to be pointed out in development, when children on the average become more and more able to distinguish reality from fantasy. Though there is again research that shows our mind may not always be as efficient as hoped for, since people unconsciously do gather facts from movies. In the case of porn, I wonder about studies... Because when I read the comments on this forum about expectations and the disbelieve that acts depicted would be unsafe or even impossible to perform in real life, it does also make you wonder to what extend people do consciously copy knowledge... All this is why I posed questions as I did in the post prior.

So where else does the system fail? To which in this thread is at least pointed out that there appears to be a lacking balance. Since regular sex has visually disappeared from society as a way we learn, porn is becoming the only example available. There should at least be education to balance it. If not, there should be education to balance attitudes that for centuries are haunting us. Question is: how should we design this education to be?

System failure
Having put that in order as much as possible for now, I'd say there's a lot worth fighting for to make this all better. Some scientific research may actually proof strategies worthwhile or important enough to undertake. Off course; in the end it's us humans that need to care.

If anyone can answer questions as I put in the former post. Please share! :)

RedRoses

Posted: 03 Oct 08:14