Anyone else experience a yes that means no?
This thread was inspired by the thread postead earlier about no meaning no. I would first like to clarify that I firmly believe in a no means no. If a girl has even the slightest doubt I simply refuse to go any further. Its the same process of a girl makes you angry you leave you don't beat her. She hits you, you don't fight back you simply call the police because its unacceptable. But not once should you ever raise your fist towards her in anger. Nor should you go "let out" your anger through anyway other than deep breathing since you will eventually equate the anger with violence or w.e. your outlet is, and it can be unhealthy (that's my belief at least)
But I do have 1 issue. Where does the line really exist? I once engaged in consensual sex that turned into non consensual about 2 weeks later. She attacked me jumped on my lap started kissing me, giving me oral, and then got off of me, laid back and said "take me, I want u on top, I hate being on top." So I obliged. We finished up we saw each other at work and it was fine. About a week later she started changing then she would flip out and pick fights, I said what is wrong and she was like we shouldn't have done it. And I said I'm sorry but you came onto me and you said to take you and how you wanted me on top. She replied with "I DIDN'T WANNA HAVE SEX WITH YOU. I NEVER SAID YES. YOU WERE ON TOP OF ME" this turned into quiet a problem, I was confronted by a few mutual friends who were skeptical that I did, but still appalled nonetheless. I even had 1 physical confrontation that ended with broken ribs and a broken nose and concussion for him and a black eye for me. (He came at me after I had gotten out of work. He walked right up punched me in the face and I defended myself...police ruled it self defense and I didn't press charges simply because "Mr. Badass" was punished enough when all his friends watched a guy 50 lbs lighter and 5 inches smaller knock him clean out). Eventually it came out as she regretted it. I didn't really rape her, she was "emotionally" confused when she had sex with me and her hormones were flying because of her period starting soon and several other excuses
I am finding more and more similar cases of similar events. I've watched a girl take advantage of a guy so under the influence of a drug that they can barely see let alone maintain a reaction. They sleep with them and then proceed to tell their girlfriends that they didn't wanna have sex with him. They were so drunk that it shoulda just been rape etc etc. When it was the exact opposite that was the case.
Or the case of the 18 year old who slept with his 17 year old gf. She came home and was so paranoid that her parents would find out she broke down crying and when asked why she said he was raped. Parents called cops, the bf was arrested, charged and classified as a sexual predator. A few weeks later the dad found out that it was consensual. Disowned the daughter and tried to drop the charges but the state was pursuing it so now the bf is labeled as a sexual predator for "rape" and he was kicked out of the military (joining the marines so he could train then become a cop)
Please don't think I'm trying to say that no doesn't always mean no. I'm just wondering why it seems like yes is meaning no nowadays, or that woman are trying to make excuses for thing
Ducy
Replies:
Let me start by saying it is always wrong to accuse someone of something they did not do.
Why do people sometimes blame others?
A possible reason for this behavior you have actually stated yourself; it is because the women described felt an "urge", gave into it and afterwards felt regret. The regret most likely comes from shame and values on right and wrong that are so deeply imprinted that they not only consider the act "wrong", they consider themselves "wrong". As a sort of self-defense-mechanism, the brain tries to find a reason why this situation occurred, that is beside themselves. Iow: the person they had sex with, gets the blame.
This could be true for both men and women. Through the centuries it seems that women suffer a bit more from the "sex is wrong" and "I am now a whore" than men.
The risk of subtle communication
This was the "straight ahead" version. The long version of it is that there could be other issues. Like: the woman changed her minds and didn't dare to speak up (that would be unfair, he's nearly inside me and now I'd ask him to stop?). But later on decides she shouldn't have continued.
Another possibility is: she has given signals that the male didn't understand. Like pushing or pulling away lightly, instead of the clear and short "no" or "stop". From her experience; it was wrong and he didn't "listen". From his; there was nothing wrong about it. (again; both men and women)
example; the clear situation
I myself have been in a clear situations: screaming "no" and kicking, but they wouldn't stop. And I have been hit with my head on the pavement by a teenager and choked and found myself unable to move or make a sound, like I was frozen in time. Though my actions didn't signal anything, the force of the act itself made it clear that this was a very wrong situation.
example; the unclear situation
Sometimes it's a matter of perspective. Like my bf and I encountered about 2 years ago. You should know prior that my bf is very patient, warm, takes it slowly and cuddly. He knows everything about my bad sexual experiences and has never rushed anything. He has been very considerate, always checking on me, not leaving anything to chance. The first few months I got scared with every sudden move, especially when kissing or having him on top of me. We were having penetrative sex for about 6 months by than and it had all turned out great. We had tried about every position, which I all loved. And I had become multi-orgasmic by then. Maybe also important is that I have a high tolerance for pain and we had never done quickies:
That evening he was longing for me. After I got into bed he touched my breasts roughly and thought I was aroused (mistake; I was just cold) as he reached down, found soaking wet pussy (wet cause I had wanted him earlier that evening, but that arousal was gone now). He got on top, pushed my legs apart. I figured he'd at least give me oral or finger me. He interpreted it as an invitation. He pushed in right away, happy as a puppy. I was confused and felt both pleasure and pain. I felt helpless. He felt my orgasms. As soon as I caught my breath I squeaked "stop". He immediately did and was much surprised to see my scared. He held me while I was shaky and speechless. I discovered I was bleeding a bit.
It only got clear to us after we talked about it in the morning. His first response when I mentioned I wanted to talk about what had happened, was that I shouldn't worry. Sometimes things just don't go as planned. It was all ok. I got very mad; "this wasn't not as planned, this was not ok, this was wrong!". He was shocked when I told him crying in anger how he had made me feel. Hearing all this he felt awful himself. He apologized and said he felt guilty. That he never intended to make me feel this way. And would never ever want to do that to me! My response (after calming down a little) was that it wasn't his fault. That I should have told him immediately. Even the first moment I felt he was too rough. He agreed that whatever I didn't like, he wanted to hear. After that we talked some more in detail about what either of us had experienced that evening.
After that, we have never been in such an awkward situation again. There have been times that I've felt discomfort and I've immediately spoke up and we've immediately stopped or changed positions. This experience made it clear to us that even though I had transformed into a vibrantly sexual young woman, we still needed to be careful. It was a lesson. The only awkward situation following was when I nearly pushed him in once and he had to stop me from doing so, cause he really wasn't in the mood. That was my lesson that even when his member is erect and happy, that doesn't automatically mean he is. Erect doesn't equal "go"....
RedRoses
Thanks for the reply roses. And I do totally understand the difference between 2 peoples views. He thought he was doing good and u wanted it, you didn't and such. I've had the similair instances. Well sorta. I thought she enjoyed something so I continued with it but come to find out it was more the surprise of it the first time that she liked...but didn't enjoy it too much. I felt bad after I found out and we discussed it.
But at the same time I honestly don't believe this was this case (if that's what you were trying to get at). Yes she came on to me, and then laid back and asked me to do it. She was pulling me to her and I said wait I need a condom and she was "ensuring" I was still hard. Then as I started to penetrate she pulled me into her because her legs wer e wrapped around her and she was pulling. The sex was filled plenty of affirmatives "oh **** me" "oh god faster" "harder" "bend me over" "don't stop" etc...she even asked if I wanted to finish on her and I just said no its fine ill cum inside (parents were coming home so I had to hurry...orgasm was nowhere in sight partly from unplayful partner and numbness of condom so sad to say I faked...seriously). yes she talked dirty but that was it. She wanted me to do everything even turn her over for doggy.
Afterwards she was feeling great...giggly...cuddly...went home and everything was fine for a while. It was after a week or so that it happened. I just think its kind of ridiculous when you leave a guy with a fat hicky and claw marks. Your screaming to keep going and stuff and then suddenly claiming that you were basically forced.. it was just aggravating. And it really set me off after the fight. She was actually fired because it was found that she had me jumped and one of her friends showed the police texts from her saying "omg I ****ed collin last night it was so fun. He was what I thought etc etc" so she finally admitted it because when she got questioned about it (I had some txts from her saying we should do it again and stuff)
Way too much drama for an unorgasmic lay haha
Ducy
Well, than my guess is the first applies to her; having regrets afterward and blaming it on you. Or maybe she suddenly got scared someone at the job would find out.... Was she fired because she had wrongly accused you? That seems right to me.
RedRoses
The story of date rape - in all cultures in all ages. No one, including, sometimes, the participants ever knows the real truth. Making love becomes a rape when a bobby raps on a car window; when the next period is two days late; mum finds spots in her knickers; she gets scared; sister walks in or similar episodes. Assuming that force is not used, all these situations have become rape and harmed young men.
Yes, I am a feminist but recognize that the frightened teen woman is likely responsible for as many identified incidents of date rape as deaf young men are who refuse to hear no. Nothing really unusual in what you report, Ducy, we hear it in all variations and never are convinced that we hear the truth.
Brandye
It really worries me brandye. I mean I find rape vile. I have a lot of respect for women and I just hope that my future daughters never do something like the above events. I also hope that my future sons will be the same way as me. (Not to boost my ego but I am a genuine knight in shining armor)
Ducy
It is something that causes worry! The problem is honesty/lies.
Rapists in almost all cases deny their acts, even though they did know it was very wrong. The girls that lie about being raped, because of shame or anxiety. They make it not only hard on wrongfully accused, they also make it hard on girls that did get raped! My guess is there are more rapist that lie, than girls that do about being raped...
There will always be cases in which there is unclarity; a difference in interpretation of the situation. Which could be discussed and "solved" together; if it wasn't a severe offense and you both are honest and open to eachother. And if more severe, than a higher authority should judge.
Judging becomes very hard for everyone once lies are part of the scene. My heart breaks when hearing those sad stories of girls traumatized for life, but their rapists run free! Or they went through all this trouble and "reliving" the experience, but the rapist gets such a minor penalty the whole case seems not worth it... Personally, I am rather angry at our system of justice, in which offenses that consider finances are way more heavily punished than rape or violence. Examples:
-A rapist could be convicted to community service and 3 months prison conditionally (meaning he doesn't even have to do time if he "behaves"!).
-A guy that managed to get large sums of money transferred into his own bank account from the big-ass-company he worked; up to 10 years prison!
The difference is made based on whether it was a mentally sane, conscious and planned crime or driven by primal urges. Also; it would be too easy if we wouldn't punish financial crimes heavy. But I think the damage done to the victim(s) should lead the system more than it currently does. Stealing money from a million dollar company causes only "financial damage" and impact is (very) little. When raped, the victim is damaged for life. Thus the latter crime is more severe and should be punished accordingly.
RedRoses