OP: Found out friend's spouse is cheating in confidence... torn.

If "pay up & shut up" is the sacrifice for the "love" of one's spouse, I doubt the feeling is mutual. Because this spouse has definitely tried to make his/her burden less heavy by telling their partner. So; this spouse is expecting his/her partner to do what (s)he was unable to do him/herself. And by definition doesn't really "love" either. That's seems to me like quite a heavy definition to put on love and marriage...

I still wonder about the Judas example... I'm not much knowledgeable of the bible, but as far as I know: being Judas means someone who can't resist temptation of fulfilling one's own interests, therefor denying the truths one knows and betraying a friend with the most terrible results as consequence. By that comparison; fulfilling one's own interests by protecting your marital bond, therefor denying the truth one knows about the cheating, betraying a friend and putting this friend into a possibly life-threatening situation. The way I see it: the friend who's being cheated is the one who's about to be hanged on the cross by at least 2 betrayers.

As for the depicted worst-case-scenario, I think you should always try to work this out first with the spouse, then with the cheater, then with the friend. Thereby giving everyone a fair shot at it. In the best-case scenario, the spouse immediately says "you're right", goes back to friend, friend reckons being dishonest and confesses about cheating to partner. From that moment on; the truth is out there, instead of lies, and everyone can make truthful and clear decisions based on it. I also have another worst-case-scenario: "O hon, I'm sorry you got HIV, but I didn't know what to tell you... Or actually: I knew exactly what to do and could have accomplished it in many ways. But I really had to nurture my spouse's little feelings and think of our marriage. More truthfully; I really had to think about me, me, me and my marriage. You understand that, right?"

The guilt is not only price for what you did. Responsibility does not only come with actions. It is also the price for what you neglected to do. By not saying, one approves. By not preventing, one allows. It makes you guilty as charged.

Yes, a spouse is a very important person in your life, no doubt! And I would advice to keep him/her informed of your actions, should (s)he refuse to confront the cheating-friend. But; your spouse does not and will never equal you. You remain individuals. Your spouse is just another person that could disappear without warning. In the end all that's left is the integrity of your own mind.

RedRoses

Posted: 06 Oct 01:25

EEK i understand your assumption that i was referring to adultery, but clearly that doesn't make sense being that your marriage is not sexually exclusive. i purposefully said 'something' behind your back leaving it up to your standards, ideals, and morals. for example you could be a peta activist and your husband hunts animals with friends behind your back, and eats KFC. or he is a pedophile, a drug addict, whatever crosses your line and you feel that the silence has to be broken. OR is the marital trust and secrecy absolute similar to a priest and a church parishioner?

i remember when discussing fwb you said that your fwb are true friends that you socialize with. and that they tell you the truth whether you want to hear it or not. so you still have the same answer?

big916

Posted: 06 Oct 01:26

Your question was about adultery - changing it halfway through the debate because you weren't uniformly getting the answer you expected isn't permitted.

Spouses and being true to him/her takes priority over telling your friends what they may not want to hear. You are NOT married to your friends, you ARE MARRIED to your spouse. If your spouse is just another person like any old Tom, Dick or Harry who could disappear - just as your friends can - why are you married AT ALL?

So in the end, I'm with my spouse and my friend will just have to deal with whatever comes - if it comes at all - which despite the platitudes is NOT guaranteed esp. if people just keep their mouths shut.

RR - it isn't you who has to pay the price - it the cheating spouse. Judas betrayed the most important person in his life for NOTHING which is exactly what all of you are counseling is the right thing to do. "Oh, I cannot bear this knowledge that I have and must blast her world to hell and back because I", notice that word, "cannot bear the thought of her being played for a fool."

You can't bear it? Okay, so then you tell her, she feels trashed but that's ok, better she feels bad than you do - right?

EvilEvilKitten

Posted: 06 Oct 01:26

Yes, your spouse is just another person like any old Tom, Dick or Harry who could disappear, just as your friends can. So far; I haven't seen exceptions. If you do, you must have a better spiritual hotline than Il Papa and the Dalai Lama do ;)

I don't think I wrote that, but since I can't find a more similar phrase either... I wrote:
"(s)he is my friend and I will not let my friend be played like a fool."
If I've somewhere used the words that I wouldn't be able to "bear" it, it is partially meant as my conscious speaking (doing the wrong thing) and mostly meant as compassion.

As an example: I also couldn't bear seeing my friend struggle. It hurt me to see such pain and I've had sleepless nights worrying. That however didn't mean I wasn't there, just to make things easier on myself. Cause you bite your teeth, suck it in and stick with your friends, no matter how hard it gets.

I didn't mean to get too personal on this... But this subject strikes me, because I've seen what it can do to someone to find out that people knew, but no-one has done anything to get the truth to you. When the truth comes out and it becomes apparent that it was out there on the street all this time... it gives the feeling as if it all has been a fun game; being the toy that's played with and laughed at. It makes things even worse. I wasn't one of those people that knew. I was just the one first confided when the truth was learned, the one to listen to the crying, doing the comforting and trying to bring that smile back.

Did shutting up about it, change the reality? No. Did it help anyone to shut up about it? No. Would it have helped if someone had stepped up for the truth? I can't say for sure, only that it was the wish afterwards someone had done so. With best interests at heart, if I had known, I would have.

RedRoses

Posted: 06 Oct 01:26

Let me bring Dr.Janis Abrahms Spring, who has been counseling couples on this topic for more than 20 years and who wrote the seminal book on the subject: After the Affair: Healing the Pain and Rebuilding Trust When a Partner Has Been Unfaithful

Specifically, let me direct your attention to the Epilogue. "Revealing the Secret: Truth and Consequences"

"If you want to escape from an unhappy marriage, you can use the truth as an exit visa. If you want to hurt your partner for ignoring or mistreating you, you can use your revelation as a weapon of revenge. If your relationship is faltering or simply standing still, you can speak out to shake it from its lethargy." p249-250

further down the page and highlighted by the use of italics:

"there is no correct response. It's not always better to confess or to conceal."

Dr. Spring then goes on to list the disadvantages of telling and then goes on with examples from her practice.

"Remaining silent may be right for you, too. IF you have reason to believe that your revelation will harm the relationship as much as the affair itself; if you fear that the news will permanently scar your partner and lead to a separation; if you want to contain the damage and keep your relationship intact, it may make sense to keep the secret secret." p 252

"My own view is that no two situations are alike and that what is good for one couple may be bad for another." p 257

"However you decide to handle your secret, the idea that one solution is always better than another is, I believe, an illusion. When you do X, Y doesn't always follow; the human heart doesn't run by these kinds of laws." p 259

Now, then into what is already a fraught situation, here you come with your burning need to tell the truth.

"In a 1988 study by Annette Lawson, up to 40% of women and 30% of men said that their confessions did irreparable damage to their marriages." p253

There is always the option of stopping the affair and recommitting to and rebuilding one's marriage while NOT confessing. This is a worth while choice. Perhaps, unbeknownst to you, this was the erring spouse's choice - three months into the process - they're happier than ever - you come along and "tell all".

Bringing me back to my point - you do NOT know everything inside that marriage - you, to ease your conscience and 'be true to yourself and your ethics', might actually do more harm to your friend and to her/his marriage than the erring spouse did while destroying your own marriage.

Yes you have seen exceptions, RR - you've seen me. No my husband is NOT 'just another person'. He is the most important man in the world. In your example: of being laughed at - her PRIDE got hurt. Actually, if someone had NOT told her and she NEVER found out, which is entirely possible - YES, it would have helped if everyone had kept silent. The entire situation, where you became aware of it, would not have risen at all. No, tears. No pain. No struggle. But someone just HAD to talk - oh joy! Leaving you there to pick up the wreckage. Now to quote you specificly: ""(s)he is my friend and I will not let my friend be played like a fool." then later "I won't sleep with that as my thought of comfort." Just who are you seeking to shield from pain here?

EvilEvilKitten

Posted: 06 Oct 01:27

EEK - my question is about loyalty and marital confidentiality, hence the title of the thread. the secret is interchangeable and just had to be big enough where people have to really think about whether or not they would tell their friend. if i had started this thread with generic info about any secret you and most would have stated that yes you keep the secret between you and your spouse. i would have said the same. i apologize and i could have worded the question better.

my interest in starting this thread is to get an idea if people believe there is a limit to the confidentiality. adultery is a great example to find answers because one, it is not accepted in our society, and two the action has a possibility of being life threatening.

"So in the end, I'm with my spouse and my friend will just have to deal with whatever comes - if it comes at all - which despite the platitudes is NOT guaranteed esp. if people just keep their mouths shut." so if your best friend gets HIV EEK s/he has to deal with it because adultery didn't cross your line to speak up?

between you and RR both are arguing that selfishness is a reason for talking or not talking depending on your opinion. so EEK if adultery is not enough to break martial confidentiality, then where is your line? love and confidentiality is not truly unconditional, even as unromantic as that sounds it is the truth.

big916

Posted: 06 Oct 01:27

for the adultery scenario - isn't there a way to find out more info about the marriage. the friend could ask questions to the person being cheated on such as have they ever thought about and open marriage? if they say no i would never do that, then you know the cheater has to confess, end the affair(s), or you need to find a way to for them to find out because their life is at risk. i know i sound like a broken record but that possibility doesn't seem to be appreciated much.

big916

Posted: 06 Oct 01:27

By 'lily-white' I assume you mean keeping good with my spouse. Well, my spouse would also want to know if they were in this situation so she would (and does) understand.

Problem is my spouse isn't the one being cheated on, my friend (in this scenario) is.

Also, I wouldn't have lied because I made no agreement not to inform my friend of his partners extra marital activities.

Any bad feelings fall, not on me, not on my friend, not on my spouse, BUT THE PERSON WHO IS CHEATING ON MY FRIEND. They chose their course of action, and they are responsible for their action, not me or anyone else.

how do you rebuild trust whilst you are lying to them? Say you 'rebuild' your marriage, then somewhere down the line the cheated spouse finds out you had an affair and hid/lied about it, all your 'rebuilding' just went to shit because you just showed your partner;

a) You will cheat on them.

b) you will deceive them.

c) you don't respect them enough to let them choose whether they want to be in a relationship with a person that does a) and b)

Spring1978uk

Posted: 06 Oct 01:28

EEK, I don't see any of the quotes of Dr Spring that states it was good for the partner, only that it maintained their marriage. Now, we all know that maintaining marriage isn't the ultimate "good" either. As far as I see it, by withholding the truth, you're denying your partner a clear judgment of your marriage. You're treating him/her as lesser competent of deciding than yourself. And on that basics, any attempt to build trust is a lie in itself.

I won't go into details, but it wasn't possible for her not to find out. She knew "something" was wrong, it was just waiting for the day he'd tell her "what". And it was him that decided to give it all up, even though she was contemplating on giving it another shot. Perhaps it was "pride" being hurt, I'd more call it: Feeling toyed with. Fooled. Unfair treatment. Betrayed. I can tell you that there was not much pride left, only shame. Which was very hard to get out of her head; don't feel shame for something he should be ashamed of!

No, I haven't seen exceptions. It's not about the existence of happy marriages (I know they do and happy for people like you), it's the fact that anyone can disappear. Sudden death, sudden illness, sudden change of heart. It could happen today, tomorrow, any day. What matters is: you remain an individual and your choices remain yours.

Yes, I wrote that I won't sleep with that as my thought of comfort. But that's for the exact opposite reason of what you make of it now. I won't make up excuses, to make myself feel better. When I know what should be done. I think Big is putting it quite right: "between you and RR both are arguing that selfishness is a reason for talking or not talking depending on your opinion." Though it certainly does not mean to preach a lack of selfishness at all costs, as that would make a person selfless. At some point: you need to be thinking about yourself and your own needs as well, or you'll drown taking care of others. In this case; I think lack of selfishness is required. I think we all agree on that.

Big, you've gotten a whole lot of input on the ethics, values, perceptions on loyalty and possible scenario's and outcomes. I think it would be time for the persons in this situation, to start making up their mind. Personally: I believe that when a person thinks clearly and consciously about the aspects mentioned and makes a decision based on what (s)he feels is right, without making up excuses, with respect for the others' competence, with no harm in mind and with best interest for others at heart, then they've at least done everything possible in the attempt to be a respectful human being.

RedRoses

Posted: 06 Oct 01:28

I would ask, RR, where you got your ideas re: marriage from because it is NOT like any other relationship, including friendship.

You all are placing the value of Friendship well above that of Marriage and I am wondering - why? What is so important about friendship, in your eyes, that you would willingly consign your spouse to infamy and damn your marriage for a mere friendshiip?

Please - read the research and then get back to me about - precisely - why you think friendship is MORE important than marriage.

Because the only option is the one posted by Dancing Doc way back in the beginning of this thread.

Spring - why does it destroy friendships and marriages? - because either way - it does. If you tell your friend or if you don't tell your friend - your relationship ends after revelation. Many women say at the time of revelation "I wish I had known." but for many that's a lie. (research again) They end up blaming you, the friend, for the failure of their marriage. Cognitive dissonance perhaps but if she still loves the man, she has to think well of him in order to think well of herself so she will blame you. So, tell? You the friend are damned if you do and damned if you don't. Your choice.

Because to my eyes, you all are operating on HEARSAY. You're trusting that what your spouse told you is true and yet damning your spouse's marriage to you by devaluing your spouse's confidence -all for what is essentially GOSSIP.

Yes, RR, people aren't permanent which is precisely why you should firmly stick with your spouse for as long as you have them. May I just point out that the erring spouse's reasons may be quite other than selfishness? Unfair treatment? Really, so he should resign himself to being married and yet totally without sex for what 20 to 30 years? Who exactly is being unfair in that situation? Review all of the threads in here. Is the ONLY alternative you will permit divorce - leaving a bunch of broken families behind as partners leap from marriage to marriage? Your friend RR may have felt shame for reasons she was unwilling to admit even to you.

Respect - I wish you would respect your fellow humans enough to permit them to be human - that is to err without being so judgemental as to impose a 'one solution that fits all' upon them.

EvilEvilKitten

Posted: 06 Oct 01:28

Wow, that's alot of reading and info to digest

what about door #3 ....
where you speak to your own wife and persuade her to go back to the source and find out if everything is ok within the relationship. Are there circumstances where we (my wife and I) can provide moral or spiritual support for either party? Plus letting her know that the longer it lasts, the more damage it will do overall. I would rather offer a bit of support to the offending party to get back on track instead of tearing down walls in the name of my own conscience.

After that, you can leave it up to the cheating partner to make the right decision

hot-texan

Posted: 06 Oct 01:28

HT, I think that was the first door that was suggested. And I still do think of that as the best option. It's just a question of what lies beyond that option. Judging by EEKs last post, it seems she even thinks that first suggested option was a good idea.

So, let's all pray that this spouse (of which I'm still not sure it is a man or woman), will take it as a good suggestion and be on it's way to his/her cheating buddy to have a talk. Gender doesn't matter, would just make the referring easier :)

EEK, I believe I owe you a reply, instead of rudely disregarding your remarks. I know I've brought it up as example and therefor have made you free to comment and ask questions. I think you're being very much assuming about their relationship. But right now, I'll have to excuse myself from further explanation. Not because I don't know, but I feel it would be disrespectful to share any more details. One of them is still alive and frankly; I wish him all the best. Believe it or not. I do respect my fellow humans.

RedRoses

Posted: 06 Oct 01:29

People that burden secrets a lot of times feel that they have to tell someone to get it off their chest and unburden themselves. what if the husband that tells his wife this secret simply because he can't handle it alone, and subconsciously wants her to do or say something?

do you not see the wife being cheated on as a victim? i see a reason to say or do something because the wife didn't sign up for this. you and your husband EEK agreed to an open marriage, and all the risks that come with it. she did not.

i am holding onto my morals and what i think is right. which is if someone i love is in danger i help them. my friend is in danger of physical harm not just emotional, and you expect me to keep quiet and act the same around that couple? if they expect that then we surely can't be properly matched right? i come from a broken home so i guess my feeling that my wife will always be there with me has changed with my upbringing. women come and go, but my friends will always be there for me.

big916

Posted: 06 Oct 01:30

No I do not see anyone as a victim - what I see are two unhappy people trying to muddle through as best as they can being denied the chance to win or lose, succeed or fail on their own as a couple (growth) by their well-meaning friends.

I did NOT come from a broken home. I came from a home which held together through thick and thin and intermittent warfare. I expect marriages to stick and I expect my spouse to put me before all others as I put him before all others with the one exception of our children. Selecting your spouse is the most important decision a human being can make; believing this, I took my time and vetted men very carefully before accepting a proposal after making it perfectly clear that the only way out of this marriage was via being put 6 feet under.

Certainly, stick with your morals and I shall stick with mine.

Our children first, spouse second, other family third and all others -I'll get back to you.

EvilEvilKitten

Posted: 06 Oct 01:30