OP: What's your reason for thinking gay is wrong? (excluding religion)

there is nothing wrong with being homosexual, or bisexual, just as there is nothing wrong with being "straight". all humans have come from the same place and it is said that all humans originated from one race. people are people, dont judge them by their sexuality! homophobia is just like racism, accept against gay people. i have a sister who is bi and a whole lotta friends who are gay and bi. homosexual people or bisexual people are not different from "straight people" in any way. i think that it sorta falls into the category of freedom of speech a little bit. people get all freaked out when they see 2 women or men kissing but straight people are shown having sex on tv all the time where anyone can see them, and gay people cannot even get married? that is stupid!!

i bet no one will listen to me anyways i think im the youngest person on the boards......but lemme know if u think my answer is intelligent at all.

girl12

Posted: 30 Sep 05:11

Thanks, girl12. Young or not, it sounds to me like you have a great outlook on life. I really appreciate such an impassioned response. I especially like the fact that you know how you feel and aren't afraid to say so.

I just wish all people felt as you do.

oberon

Posted: 30 Sep 05:11

thanks oberon.....i also wish that alot of people were more open minded.....it might help solve some of the worlds' problems.

girl12

Posted: 30 Sep 05:11

Hmm... Its not ;) *smiles* its.. Who you are, if you are gay, its part of you just like.. it is for someone to be "Straight"... thats how if eel anyway...
What i figure, is its one of gods way to keep a "Tabs" on the population *mumbles* too many peopl eon this planet.. lol WE're KILLIN ER!... meh hehe

Jamie

LadyOfLucidDepths

Posted: 30 Sep 05:12

Thanks Lady. As you can probably tell, I'm gay and no I don't think there is anything wrong with it. I'm just curious as to what answers the people who do can come up with.

Usually they give some religious reason. If that is the only reason they can come up with, then, by my way of thinking, that is religious discrimination- since I consider myself a very spiritual person and my religious views don't encompass that.

With a few notable exceptions, the feeling on this site is very gay-friendly. So I hope to hear from more of you.

oberon

Posted: 30 Sep 05:12

there is a difference, between spirituality and religion, you can be religious and not spiritual, and you can be spiritual and not religious.. i like the 2nd one.. the best personally
and this site is gay friendly, as it should be. I don't see why people respond to... people being gay the way they do... in everyday life.. like, im fine with it, its none of my buisness. I also, will stand up for gay people when someone is.. "putting them down" saying stupid stuff about it... i just argue :P cause to judge that is stupid.

Jamie

LadyOfLucidDepths

Posted: 30 Sep 05:12

Oberon, Mike has posted his opinion on the subject in a few threads. I think he has the board and your post's best interest in mind. He's voiced his opinion and held some very enlightening "discussions" with others on the board.

Many of us on the board don't believe that being gay makes you a bad person any more than being straight makes you a good person.

?wiseman?

Posted: 30 Sep 05:13

Thanks, wiseman. I've read quite a few of mike's post and I'll even admit I had him in mind when I posted this question.

oberon

Posted: 30 Sep 05:13

Okay, I'm gonna go out on an unpopular limb here...

You say you don't think there "... is anything wrong with it."

The question I would pose back to you, then, is what is your standard or criteria of what is "right" or "wrong?" Because in my opinion your entire argument rests on this.

You say that people who believe differently than you are therefore guilty of "religious discrimination," and yet you by your own admission are intolerant of that different viewpoint (that being gay is wrong).

If you're asking whether homosexuality is harmful to the ecosystem, that's one thing (why would it be??), but if you're asking if some people believe that it is morally wrong, that's another, and the second question presupposes belief in a moral code of some kind. You may subscribe to one, someone else may hold to another, but I don't think either side should be intolerant of the other's convictions.

If you're okay with it and feel confident of your stance, why should it matter so much to you what other people think about your opinion anyways? I don't worry whether or not someone else is critical of my choices if I'm sure they're right for me.

Bottom line -- if you expect others to respect and be accepting of your lifestyle and beliefs, you've got to be accepting of theirs as well, even if theirs is that you are wrong. Otherwise, you're also guilty of intolerance. Believing that only your opinion is correct is the very essence of religious intolerance and exclusivism.

Just my 2 cents, and please don't take offense to it.

TexasGuy

Posted: 30 Sep 05:15

I'll go out on another limb, Texas guy....you ask,
what is your standard criteria for right and wrong?

To give the "simple" response - it's about RIGHTS.

At the Stonewall Riots, June 27, 1969 in New York city, a handfull of gay men stood up to the police who were raiding the bar and declared "Gay Power." That started the "Gay Rights" movement and

Over the last 30 years, our American society, along with state, federal and local institutions have had to face the reality that EQUALITY must extend to all - without reguard to how popular that given issue is.

Whenver a line is drawn, there will be people on both sides...and only time, awarness, education and exposure will help to break the emotional and even religious divisions.

So, for me, it must be about EQUALITY.

Take for instance, the issue of gay marriage. Check out this story that appeard in our local paper this sunday: (link no longer exists)

I think this helps frame the overall issue of gay rights. While it speaks specifically to marriage, the reality of how our government can and does codify classes of people should give us all pause.

Equality is a right - not right or wrong.

Rawbob

Posted: 30 Sep 05:15

Good post, Texasguy. I certianly am NOT offended.

First of all, I am not really looking for any kind of acceptance or validation from this thread. I got THAT all on my own. What I'm interested in is- apart from religious reasons- why people would think being gay is bad. (the ecosystem reference was sort of sarcasm...)

Regarding the religious discrimination that I mention, I'm sorry I may not have been clear enough. I have NO problem with opposing views. The problem comes when a religious majority want to make those views law. Take the marriage issue for instance. It is a religious majority that thinks that marriage should be denied to gays. My religious beliefs don't encompass that. So why, just because they are a majority, should their religious tenets be more important than mine. Gay marriage would force nothing on anyone. Denying gay marriage forces millions of people to suffer under other's religious opinions.

Feel free to keep offering your two cents. As I said, good post.

oberon

Posted: 30 Sep 05:16

First off, glad you didn't take it the wrong way. No offense was intended, so thank you for being a good sport about it.

Secondly, I'm glad you feel that you are doing what is right for you. Each of us must be true to ourselves, right? Of course that doesn't guarantee that all the choices we make will be the "right" ones but at least they will be our choices, not those that others have imposed on us.

Regarding the last comment, the one quoted above: I would agree with you 100%. You can't -- and shouldn't try -- to legislate morality. It has to be a person's own internal decision. I happen to believe that homosexuality is wrong morally, based on my religious convictions. However, I also believe that premarital (straight) sex is wrong, adultery is wrong, lying is wrong, breaking the law is wrong... my point is, it should not be elevated above the many other things that religious people tend to view as wrong, as if it's a greater sin. Most religious people I know are willing to wink at those things -- "I mean, c'mon, those things happen" -- but get all upset about gay marriage, etc. And that's where I see a disconnect.

I'm not sure that any of us, when it comes right down to it, has any "rights", really, but if you're talking about the law then I would absolutely, even as a straight Christian man, support full and equal rights for homosexuals, their right to marry, not be discriminated against, etc. Because I think they should be free to live their life as they see fit (I almost said "have chosen to" but I know that might open up that whole other can of worms!). I guess that famous quote about not agreeing with you but defending to the death your right to say it comes to mind.

I agree that gay marriage forces nothing on anyone, just as straight marriage doesn't. We should be able to live with one another in harmony, respecting each other's viewpoints however different they might be.

Bottom line -- I don't think you should try to legislate morality or ethics. I believe God gave every one freewill to do as they pleasen (although I do believe we are accountable for such choices). No man should try to deny that to anyone.

(Okay, getting off my soapbox now...)

TexasGuy

Posted: 30 Sep 05:16

Okay...

First of all, that is SO frustrating, when you lose some of what you've so carefully written! I usually don't even redo it when that happens, I'm so aggravated. So yeah, you deserve double points oberon!

Now without getting into another lengthy back-and-forth, point-by-point rebuttal of your latest missive, let me just try to boil this debate down to its most basic points:

1. You think being gay is NOT "wrong"
2. I think being gay IS "wrong"
3. We disagree
4. We are both entitled to our own points of view because we both have free will and freedom of choice
5. Neither one of us advocates trying to legislate or restrict the other's way of life and would prefer to live together in harmony

Is that fair?

As far as whether or not it's harmful, hurts the ecosystem (I know, I know... it was sarcasm!), etc., I think we could both trot out various research or studies to support our own perspectives on that. I've seen those on both sides of the debate.

All I will say is this, though -- I believe that God designed (most of) us to desire and need another person to experience life with. And that part of that design was for it to be someone of the other sex. The yin to our yang, if you will (or maybe like Capt. Kirk when he was split into two separate halves, if you're a fan of the original series!). My wife adds mental, emotional, physical and psychic elements to our relationship that only a woman could. I have a few very close male friends but as close as we are and as much fun as we have, none of them have these traits that help to balance, strengthen, and enhance me. Not even the very sensitive ones.

It is for this reason that I think that a man who does not share his energy with a woman, or a woman with a man, is ultimately missing out on the other half of what life is all about and not fully experiencing the differing strengths and unique qualities of BOTH sexes. Men I know, and often find quite boring and predictable... but women are a wonderful and unfathomable mystery to me!

Okay, now go ahead and get the last word!

TexasGuy

Posted: 30 Sep 05:18

WOW..i just spent the last 1/2 hour going over the back and forth posts of TexasGuy and Oberon!

I'm so hesitant to start posting as it may get everything in a froth again! hahahhaha.

I had a post like this with a guy name MIKE.....he got so frustrated that he ended up leaving the site, which was not my intention...but he felt that he was being ganged up on and chastized because he felt so strongly about how being gay was wrong and a sin, etc.

I"im sorry he's gone.

Texas guy...i can tell you feel passionatly about this..and that it seems you've embraced the neo-christian stance of "love the sinner, hate the sin."

But, if you WANT to bring the bible into this....when you say

> All I will say is this, though -- I believe that God designed (most of) us to desire and need another person to experience life with. And that part of that design was for it to be someone of the other sex.

Actually, the quote is: GOD CREATED MAN in his own image,
in the image of God HE CREATED HIM (Genesis 1:27).

So, if you belive that the bible is the word of God, and that God created man in his own image, and that you belive that being gay is NOT a decision.....then GOD must have created homosexuality.

In the bible there are only 6 references to homosexuality. There are over 600 references to how str8 individuals and couples should behave when it comes to sex.

I guess it's just frustrating for me to find open-minded people like TexasGuy, who can hold the hand of a dying man, and belive that he's doomed to an eternity of hellfire and damnation.

SO, it's ok to be gay, just don't have gay sex. It's ok to be gay, just don't act on it. It's ok to be gay, just don't let me see it.

The bible teaches that sex is ONLY for procreation. So, TexasGuy, do you and your wife only have sex when you want to have kids? How realistic is it to Love the sinner, hate the sin..when history (both distant and recent) are replete with our religious leaders engaging in non-procreationary sex, pedophelia and otehr forms of sexual misconduct.

So, as my rant settles down........i guess i just tire of arguing with the "religious" folk about this issue. Why, because for every chapter and verse they quote about homosexulaity, i have 10 verses to quote about heterosexuality and how they themselves would be considered even MORE sinful than the sin of homosexuality.

As long as people see homosexuality as a male cock in a male ass, there will always be such debates. All major religions teach that sex is for procreation only. To build the family of the faithfull...so they can then spread their form of faith to those who don't belive. IT's about aprostolization and population growth ahhahaah.

Please please please do not belittle or define who i am by where i may put my penis!

Rawbob

Posted: 30 Sep 05:19

I agree that your definition of a relationship is very good. But what a lot of people don't seem to realize is gay people feel exactly the same way about their partners. With the man I love I feel a complete balance, a true partnership. Being gay is NOT all about the sex. It's about finding the person who compliments who you are.

I also happen to believe that God created us all. And I believe that God does NOT make mistakes. He has reasons for everything that happens. The trouble lies in that those reasons come filtered down through human minds. That I believe is the cause of much of the pain, suffering and intolerance in the world.

It's interesting that you should bring up "Star Trek". I love the show. Old, new, and newer! It's also always been a very gay friendly show. Most sci-fi and fantasy is. Now if only life could imitate art, maybe we could all learn to get along.

If this is truly going to be your last word on this subject here, then I want to end with making sure that everyone knows how much I respect your stance. I have great hope that with more people like you in the world we might learn to "live and let live".

Rawbob, I don't know if it will ease your mind any, but after mike had been absent for several weeks, I PM'd him. I never got to see the posts of the "brawl" the two of you engaged in, but I've heard stories...lol. I think compared to that, he and I only had a minor "tiff".

Anyway, I liked having someone around with an opposing opinion. And, other that on this subject, his advice always seemed caring and well thought out. He replied to my message and said that he had just gotten "bored" with the whole board. And maybe he would drop in from time to time. So you may sleep with a clean conscience that you didn't run him off.

oberon

Posted: 30 Sep 05:20

Okay, well I said I was leaving the last word to oberon, but that was before Rawbob added his two cents... so I'm going to add a few final comments here:

* The concept of "love the sinner, hate the sin" is hardly a new ("neo-Christian") one; Jesus taught and exemplified it over and over while he was here.

* Yes, according to the Bible God did create man in his own image... but in case you haven't heard of it, there was a little event shortly thereafter commonly known as "the fall of man", and after that man no longer perfectly resembles God. Otherwise I guess we'd have to conclude that all of the evil things done by men throughout history are directly reflective of God's nature. I doubt you'd seriously try to advance this theory. There is a LOT of stuff in this world that was not created by God (incl. hatred and violence towards gays).

* I don't think being gay is necessarily a decision, although I did know one or two guys in high school who I almost saw consciously making that decision over the course of a few years. I admit, I don't know what it's like though, and I'm open to being wrong here. Regardless, I already addressed the idea of not always having to do whatever our urges or inner self tells us we really want to do. I certainly feel pulled in a few directions myself, but some of them would be very destructive to me and my marriage were I to pursue them.

* Just a question: If being gay is not a decision, how do you, as a gay man, feel about gays who decide to pursue a straight lifestyle at some point (I've known at least 3 personally)?

Okay, now how do you feel about those married men who, after 20 (or whatever) years of straight marriage, announce to their spouse they are actually gay and want to leave to pursue a gay relationship?

* I don't dispute your claim about the ratio of verses in the Bible that address straight vs. gay behavior (although I haven't actually checked). It's not like the main theme of the Bible is to be anti-gay or something. I don't consider it any different (on a scale of sinfulness, if there were one) than a number of other things that I commonly do myself. But I don't think those 6 references you found are really very condoning of it, are they? I doubt you are trying to say that the Bible teaches that homosexual sex is absolutely fine and acceptable to God.

* That guy whose hand I held in his dying days was a Christian man, so no, I didn't believe he was "... doomed to an eternity of hellfire and damnation." And to answer your next question, yes, that means he was no longer participating in gay sexual activity, or was at least making an honest effort to restrain his passions in that regard.

* The Bible does not teach that sex is only for procreation... where did you ever get that crazy idea?! How very Catholic of you. There are tons of positive references to the pleasures and carnal delights of sex scattered throughout the Bible. If God didn't want it to be pleasurable for us, I'm pretty sure He could have made it as boring as it is for flowers. : )

* The behavior of our religious leaders, unfortunately, often has practically no direct correlation to the actual fundamental teachings and theme of the Bible. Don't forget -- Jesus came down the hardest on the religious leaders of his day, not the so-called "sinners" (who he actually chose to hang out with). Please don't judge God or the Bible based on what some whacko T.V. evangelist or "religious right" leader says; I am frequently embarrased, ashamed and angered by their unloving perversions of the true message of the Bible.

* You're absolutely right about most straight people (who condemn homosexuality) being completely hypocritical, "more sinful", etc. No argument there. I wouldn't for a second try to say that straight people are somehow categorically more moral, ethical, righteous, etc., than are gay people. I think you have to look at it on an individual level... every person is different, right? I've known some who are good and bad on both sides of the fence, as I'm sure you have too.

* I won't belittle or define who you are by where you put your penis, if you won't belittle or define who I am by the actions and attitudes of other straight and/or religious people, who I may or may not agree with. Is that fair? : )

TexasGuy

Posted: 30 Sep 05:22

The only thing I'd say in response to yours, oberon, is that although you may feel that you find your complete balance with another man, my opinion is that there are biological/chemical/genetic-level differences between men and women that complement each other when combined in an intimate relationship. So despite all of your partner's great qualities -- perhaps his sensitivity, intuition, tenderness, emotional maturity, wisdom, etc., I propose that he still cannot complete you (nor you him) as you were designed to be completed.

In Genesis, God, after creating Adam, says "It is not good for man to be alone" and proceeds to create woman. In my opinion, based on this, there was something that the male species lacked without woman. Was this a "mistake"? I don't know why God sometimes seems to change His mind or even say He is sorry for doing something after-the-fact... you've got me there!

As far as being gay not being all about the sex, yes, I understand. But I too have male friends who are very close -- know my fears, hopes, worries, ways of thinking, etc. -- and that to me is just a good strong male friendship. It might surprise you to know that straight men can also go to movies together, discuss art/literature/film/theatre together, exchange recipes and romantic ideas, even hug each other... all without feeling the least bit "worried" that we're gay. So lest you suppose that straight men can't be as close as gay men can, you might want to reconsider. Now, we DO draw the line at exchanging bodily fluids, though... ; )

I agree totally with your statement about the cause of much of the pain, suffering and intolerance in the world being the result of people filtering God's principles through their own imperfect, prejudiced minds. I think we've got it all screwed up. To quote the words of a pop group you might have liked in the '80s, "What makes a man hate another man? Help me understand."

I respect you too, oberon, and appreciate your open-minded and insightful discussion of this hot topic! Maybe if there were more gay guys like you, and more str8 guys like me, the world would be a better place, huh? : )

Kirk out.

TexasGuy

Posted: 30 Sep 05:23

Okay, I'll take this one. TexasGuy, I do not believe that being gay is a choice. But I do believe you can choose how you deal with it. For me, the choice is either being honest about who I am, or living a lie ( that would ultimately only harm myself and possibly others).

If you look at the statistics of those gays who "pursue a straight lifestyle", they are overwhelming failures. Point of reference, the two guys who started the "Exodus" program are now lovers (and very happy.)

So how do I feel about gays who get married? Or try to change? Very sad. If there was less intolerance in the world maybe they would have had the strength to be true to themselves.

I'm actually glad you came back. I thought of something after our last discussion and it's been bugging me. Actually, Rawbob brought it up:

I have a question. If these six verses were not in the Bible, how would you feel about homosexuality then? Would you still feel that it is wrong? (okay, okay, I'm breaking my own "No Religious Argument" rule. But it's my topic and I can break it if I want... nah..nah... )

oberon

Posted: 30 Sep 05:23