OP: EvilEvilKitten's The Program

Definitions...
Massage - as performed by any spa - non-sexual - to relax and tone muscles
erotic massage - hands only but definitely sexual - to get basic level ignition
body worship - using lips, tongue, hair, your body on hers/his, no holds barred, slithering around each other like snakes (see any nature tv program) - to fully engage all engines

EvilEvilKitten

Posted: 04 Oct 22:38

i think i love you EvilEvilKitten. this should be given to every man and woman out there but for now only the special few will be able to use these words of wisdom

tommy_tucker

Posted: 04 Oct 22:39

This is too structured. I've been visiting the forums here for quite a while, and I've noticed that you keep bringing up this program every time someone has a problem in the sack. I hope you aren't suggesting that this is the dictionary definition of a satisfying sexual experience. IMHO, lovemaking loses some of it's magic when it's reduced to a step-by-step process. Spontaneity and creativity are important elements as well.

PsychoSexual Madman

Posted: 04 Oct 22:42

But when you are having problems, you need some structure. You need something people can read, think about and consider before they get into it. That's the point of this program. How many of you even knew about the posterior fornix before you read about it here?

When you haven't had sex for 10 YEARS what kind of spontanity can you reasonably expect? NONE. When neither of you has had any experience and/or has not developed a satisfying technique, what kind of "magic" can you expect? Blundering about or "slam bam" does NOT cut it. When your spouse is fighting you every step of the way and you ask how to begin are you going to be satisfied with something like "Well, just tell her how you feel" or would you rather be able to SHOW her something. "This is what I had in mind."

Instead of fighting this TRY it first.
Because everyone who has tried it has nothing but GOOD things to say about it.

EvilEvilKitten

Posted: 04 Oct 22:43

Don't get me wrong, I don't think the program, or anything in it, is a bad idea. (Except for the P-spot massage. Tried it a few times, hated it.) And I can see where structure is needed for a couple who really has NO idea what they're doing. But if a couple hasn't had sex for ten years, there are WAY bigger problems at work than anything the program can fix.

My point is that it has it's place, but it isn't the end all, be all of sexual experiences. Three times per session? Three sessions a week? Come on. I can't speak for others, but I can't do something three times a night, three nights a week and not get bored with it, no matter how great it is. Did you just mean for the program to be like a jump start to a couple's sex life? If so, that would make much more sense to me than simply saying, "Follow the steps precisely for X amount of time, Y times a week, until death do you part and you'll have a great sex life."

PsychoSexual Madman

Posted: 04 Oct 22:43

I've given a lot of thought to this over the last few days, which is unusual for me, (I don't usually get caught up in a rolling argument on an internet forum) and I think I need to clarify where I'm coming from.

As much as I hate to admit this, I think one of my character flaws got the better of me in this case, and I decided from reading many of your posts that I just didn't like the way you doled out advice. I thought that you came off as conceited, and if there's one thing I can't stand, it's a know-it-all. I think the best way for people to have better, healthier lives in general, (not just sex) is for people to simply have the courage and humility to find whatever it is that works for them, and the strength to apply it to their lives. Not just take someone else's step-by-step instructions and end up even more frustrated and bitter because they couldn't get a square peg to fit a round hole. Re-reading some of your posts, my new impression of you is of someone who has done just that, which deserves kudos. Far too few people do it. You don't sound like you would be too happy trying to apply my views to your life.

I do however think it's fair to point out that my wife and I haven't followed much of your advice, either. Not much on relationships, and only the more basic advice about sex. Nonetheless, we've been together for five years now and haven't looked back. Proof enough to me that there is a right path for everyone, and they aren't all the same.

I concede that I let my perception of some of your views and your writing style color my judgement and I took it out on your program. For that, I sincerely apologise.

P.S. -- Wifey and I somehow ended up with a whole free afternoon tommorrow, and we've decided that the program would at the very least be a great way to kill all that time. I'll let you know how it goes. ;)

PsychoSexual Madman

Posted: 04 Oct 22:43

Psycho - I have been messing around with men for 40 years now and married for 30 years to the same man. If I do not know it all, then I certainly should at least come close to it. My personality is a decided one, more forthright than most, and I tend to get impatient with the pretences people use to rationalize their irrationality.

There are people who simply can not get out of their own way when it comes right down to it. For those people, here is a checklist of things they should do and in a sequence that makes sense. Starting with what is not 'threatening' and moving gently into what might be 'threatening'.

As you believe so shall you do. I am out to change your mind about sex; what it is, what it can be - this does not permit half measures and pats on the head saying "there, there".

If she's not hurtling herself into his arms with glee, if he's not looking at her with sparkling eyes, if there's no light and laughter or exhilarating joy - then he/she may want to think about what he/she's doing and what he/she's missing..and WHY.

If sex for you is NOT a GLORIOUS REAFFIRMATION of LIFE, then you're not doing it right.

EvilEvilKitten

Posted: 04 Oct 22:44

Well EEK, I must say this method sounds tremendously exciting to me, and I'm eager to try it out. My wife and I use massage oils from time to time, but I confess we've not really thought of structuring our love making this way. I'm really keen to try it out now, so thanks.

I guess my only concern with it is climaxing myself through the g spot stimulation stage (for want of a better term!) or the next one, though I understand from your post on this page that this ought not be a problem.

So thanks for the advice, good of you to post it here.

CB1969

Posted: 04 Oct 22:49

I just wanted to thank you EEK (as well as the site maintainers, and all the other contributors) for this service. We are a typical couple with 3 little kids and jobs that have sucked all the fun out of our intimate life, and it was our fault for letting it happen in the 1st place. We started on the program last night, and I haven't been this in love with my wife in a long time. :)

Ok, so just to explain what we did, we had to modify for our 1st attempt. My wife isn't comfortable with oral sex like she used to be pre-kid. She has a hard time getting the image of "kissing them with come on her breath" or whatnot out of her mind, but we're working on that. So I just substituted around that step with acceptable activity.

The 1st 3 massage/necking items I'll just call "part 1". I then gave her an external manual orgasm. Back to part 1 to keep her warm through the tickle phase (she's never had more than 1 a day, let alone in a short time frame). Next I did another manual, including finger penetration and g-spot area stimulation. Back to part 1 again, and then g-spot area again with my penis. For this we'll need to practice as it never really built on it's own. I added a lot of body massage to this, as well as some clitoral stimulation closer to the end. I ended the session with another full body massage as a night cap, as it was getting late for a work night. This whole session was about 1.5 hours.

Now on to the questions I have. For a typical session as described in the original post, where we would have repeated all of this (and more) for like 3 whole loops, how long does this typically take? Is the program intended to be an all-day affair? Believe me I'm all for that, but as I said with 3 little kids it's hard to get time like that, let along multiple times a week.

Second, and related to the 1st really, are steps 4-10 intended to be a complete to orgasm step, like where you don't go on to 6 until 4 and 5 have produced one? Or are these more of a loose guideline of things to do in order, and orgasms just come randomly and are cherished bonuses? I personally like her having one at each stage, but I want to do this "right". Doing this my way would surely make this into an all day thing.

As a side on the oil subtopic, I use olive oil, as it's very tasty. Granted it's a bit heavy and we got a good laugh this morning at the ghosted image of her on the sheets.

Again, I just wanted to say thank you for all this wonderful content. I want to be the absolute best lover I can be for my wife, and having this treasure trove of information is the best first step to being a better man for her.

Thanks...

Firmus

Posted: 04 Oct 22:52

How many times a woman orgasms during this USUALLY 45 minutes session depends upon whether she's multi-orgasmic, fully aroused, completely relaxed, focused and if she's willing. All I can tell you is - it depends. I reach orgasm very easily so for me, and women like me, an orgasm at every step is very likely.

This usually takes 45 minutes. 15 for massages, 15 for outercourse and 15 for intercourse, GENERALLY SPEAKING.

You time may differ depending upon comfort levels and modifications required.
Yes, modifications are allowed.

Excellent work, guy!!!

EvilEvilKitten

Posted: 04 Oct 22:52

I have read about THE Program... I would love to try this with my wife, but it's not realistic from time point of view... at least at this point in our lives

few small kids, full time jobs, house... you know...

is there a shorter version of this? or it basically defeats the purpose?

kot

Posted: 05 Oct 23:02

Unfortunately, not really. You need something on the order of 20 minutes to get her engines going and then another 20 to 25 to satisfy her. After that, you can fall asleep just be aware that once she knows what you both are capabale of, you may not get off so lightly next time.

EvilEvilKitten

Posted: 05 Oct 23:03

A good question, that.

Part of the answer as to do with scheduling. You do not have to enter a day and time on the calendar, although, you can put the children to bed early, especially if they do not already go to bed long before the two of you do.

Schedule household chores and train the children to pick up after themselves so neither of you have to.

A relationship is a partnership. Are you an active participant in maintaining the household or are you the guy who comes home, sits down in front of the TV with a drink, burps, and check out for a while, having to be asked to take the garbage out, wash the dishes, help with meal preparation, etc?

Are any of the children old enough to do chores so that you have a few minutes for other things?

Instead of cleaning the entire house on a particular day and becoming warn out, clean one or two rooms a day in rotation.

Meal preparation can be handled most weeks by only cooking three days a week and then fixing leftovers the other days.

The idea behind all this is to free up both spare time and energy for the two of you and not be so exhausted or tired at the end of the day. Your best way to find free time is after the children go to bed. Another way is to rest a few minutes after arriving home, and then insist that your wife take a restful bath before rejoining the family and continuing on with the business at hand/leg/foot.

Another scheduling point to consider is to wake up :45 early and have your close personal togetherness early in the morning when fully rested.

The Program --the short version

Your guide to wild rampant skin-on-skin full-body-contact sex--the short version.

1. massage--short, sweet, of those areas that may need attention
2. erotic massage/necking--
3. body worship--2/3 = :30-:40 min.
4. manual stimulation--as needed/desired
5. cunnilingus/fellatio-- " "
6. cunnilingus/fellatio with manual stimulation of the G-Spot/P-Spot
7. G-Spot caressing using the penis
8. posterior fornix caressing using the penis
9. alternate between the G-Spot and the posterior fornix for as long as he can hold out--or as/if time permits

if a break between her orgasms is needed return to body worship to keep her warm

10. time for his climax
11. cuddle
12. rest

Repeat three times per session--as/if time permits.
Have three sessions per week--as schedule permits.

Spending time on 1,2, and 3 guarantees completion on 4 through 10.
Proper outercourse leads to intercourse.
Take turns "leading" with your partner.

Work together in partnership. Plan your "work" and work your plan.

dancingdoc2

Posted: 05 Oct 23:03

Tsk!

We are all busy but we all also make time for those things that are important to us and delegate/ignore what isn't. Frankly, I'd choose sex over housework every time.

Kids in bed by 8pm gives you 3 hours to play with the dishes and laundry being done by machine and $50 per week gets your kitchen and bathrooms cleaned for you.

EvilEvilKitten

Posted: 05 Oct 23:03

Seconded. And as a rebuttal to the "but the kids won't be 'asleep' exactly at 8:00" argument that will come up, that's where the beginning comes in handy with the massaging and whatnot. That's plenty buildup and "not too risky" if your kids are like mine and randomly get back up to tell us silly stuff.

The thing I push for is not necessarily a removal of the daily responsibilities, but just do them in the other order. If you have 4 things to do and sex is 4th, make it 1st or 2nd. You can always clean or laundry after even if sleepy, but it's hard to have sex when you're looking at the clock like "fuck it's already 10:40!! GO GO GO!!!"

Firmus

Posted: 05 Oct 23:03

Hey Firmus! how do you know my wife???!?!!

just kidding :D

I agree with all above. our kids are in bed by 9. by that time everything in kitchen and elsewhere is taking care of. and I chip in my 50% or more with chores. and we have house hold help...

main issue is that she will choose TV, iPad...sleep... most anything over sex.

she is not willing to aknowege this as a problem and will not allocate time for sex. it's like hey, we already have kids, why do we need to have sex again.

but when we do have it, she definetely enjoys it, and comes regulary...
i can't explain why "if it feels good, why not have it more?" does not resonate with her

her body needs to come once per week..sometimes twice per week. and she is happy with that.

kot

Posted: 05 Oct 23:04

Now I think you're talking about my wife. :)

i'd love to say it's something we have all figured out, but nope. It's an ongoing process.

And I agree, I've never understood why you "wouldn't" want to. How many good feeling enjoyable activities don't involve chemicals or high calorie foods?

The headway we made was basically her coming to the conclusion "yeah I may not want it, but at the same time I'm not actively NOT wanting it. So may as well." So we're roughly every other night. I don't pester, and she doesn't deny except over that point.

I've also took it to watch her way more intently, her body language. I'm seeing that she is leaving subtle clues that certain days will be better than others. She may still jump on her iPad, but she's sitting by me and not in a single seat chair. Or she's ready for bed before picking it up. Things like that.

Firmus

Posted: 05 Oct 23:04

You have sex for more than merely procreative reasons - you have sex to build and maintain bonds with your partner(s). Else we'd be on a "heat cycle" and even you guys wouldn't be interested in sex 'out of season'.

But I have to admit, I can't understand those who do not want sex and more sex - esp. if you like the guy.

EvilEvilKitten

Posted: 05 Oct 23:04