OP: EvilEvilKitten's The Program

Ok, so I've given the Program a little over a month, and I'm wanting to report back.

Let me start of saying the Program in and of itself is a great thing. My wife is very receptive to it (I mean really who wouldn't take a 15-20 massage?) and I make sure she's well aroused by it, as well as very satisfied after, at least several orgasms time permitting. We go through all the steps, and I feel I've improved dramatically as a lover. As far as me being the initiator and showering her with this attention, it works well and has increased our frequency and quality of sex during those times.

However (you saw that coming, eh?), I've not noticed any marked change in how she "thinks" of sex, or rather doesn't. Granted, I may be over thinking this, but I was mildly hoping that by doing all this and showing her how much I care for her in new and exciting ways that she would start wanting to reciprocate. My wife has never been an initiator, she is not a fantasizer, and while she knows that sex is very important she has no "drive" for it. She's not a person that gets horny or aroused at all on her own thought, or by my "normal" touch. By that I mean say if I catch her in our room and take her in my arms and kiss her, there's nothing. Basically she's stated that sex won't be turned down on an every other-ish day basis, but I've noticed if it's not me starting it nothing will happen. If I don't initiate, I don't have sex.

Also, while yes I'm able to initiate sex more frequently, that same lack of participation initiating shows up during. She doesn't take a very active role in sex, at most maybe a leg wrap during her orgasm. She's told me she has to blank out her mind during sex, otherwise it's hard for her to enjoy it. I feel (and mentioned) she blank too much, because she's become a puppet essentially. If I wrap her arms and legs around myself, or pull her hand onto my penis, she gets the idea but if I don't do these things she stays still. Obviously I don't want to drive our entire sex encounter on my own, I want participation.

Oral sex is also off the table. Her mindset is that full on penetrative sex feels better than oral, so why "waste time" with oral? I've noticed she's very reciprocal in nature, like it really flusters her on days I want to make her come, but only for her benefit. I've explained many times I do this because I feel it's good to know you have someone that gets pleasure from GIVING pleasure. I do this as well because I too would like to just randomly receive pleasure without an unwritten rule of always give and take. So to her, if we're not having actual penetration sex, then there's reason to do anything. Again, I'm not insensitive to her feelings, yet this is something I greatly GREATLY miss, both giving and receiving oral. I don't think that every orgasm should best the last. To just have a sneaky fingering of her under a blanket watching TV, or some other such non-bed non-agenda type sex is important as well.

When we were young in college, we'd do things like that, pull off on the side of the road for a blowjob, etc. And granted now we have kids so us being alone isn't all that often. I'm not expecting her to be my sex slave, and be on me all the time. But she says she's not that person anymore, and the oral we did back then or other things were superseded by the full on sex we can have now.

How would things be if it were "my way"? By no means crazy. Just the freedom that comes with having someone on the same page as you. On a day I can tell she's tense from worry or "just because" I'd love to put her on the table at lunch (we're home alone) and go down on her before we go back to work. Same for me. If I'm in the shower in the morning and she slips in and gives me a handjob because she's taking a shower right after. If we're on the couch late at night, just for the fun of it she takes me out and climbs on top. I just want to know it's "on her mind". A dirty text. A secret look across the dinner table. Not being afraid to lock the bedroom door on a Sunday afternoon while the kids are downstairs playing.

These are all things we have discussed many times over the last few months. While I'm feeling that she's come a decent way along (sex was very sparse before June) this last hurdle is the most important, and I want to be sure I've exhausted all avenues. I need that feeling of physicality, and it's just tiring doing "all the work". I know I can't make her. But it's just frustrating and I needed to vent. Being in a long term monogamous relationship with kids and an otherwise perfect life, it just stinks that I feel I'm at her mercy. I can see this is where the people with open relationships can easily fix this, but that isn't an option for me. I would be tossing my entire life out the window, just for a bit of freedom? I can't risk that.

I hate that I get envious or friends or coworkers that have those freedoms. Like today at lunch a girl was talking about her husband throwing darts in the basement, and after missing like 15 times she joked that if he got a bullseye she's give him a blowjob, and damn if the next one didn't hit the mark! So he got one. I don't have that but why can't I? Like I'm somehow being cheated out of it. I also hate that I find myself thinking of coworkers and friends as outlets. I don't want to cheat, and I know I would feel horrible if I did, yet at the same time I don't now how I would act if I was genuinely approached. I hate the whole mentality of "wifely duties" or that she "better keep her man happy" like it's totally to be expected that I would step out because I'm a guy and have no self control, yet I can see the validity in it. I wouldn't be in this frame of mind if she had my satisfaction on her mind.

Oh well. I feel better broadcasting all that for some reason. I'm sure we'll have another talk tonight, so here's hoping for some progress.

Take care all....

Firmus

Posted: 05 Oct 23:12

The Program can help but it cannot cure; esp not this particular problem.

Unless a woman has embraced, rejoiced in and understood her full mature sexuality - she might as well be cardboard. She might have orgasms and think its all very nice but...The blood will not sing in her veins and the desire for him will not send her screaming out into the night after him and her body will not speak. There is no fire within.

If she had a drive before - what happened to it? NO, having kids etc and so forth DOESN'T mean no sex or no participation. (Remember who you're reading now.) The fire does not necessarily have to die.

But her policies regarding sex are not matching yours - there has to be a change somewhere.

EvilEvilKitten

Posted: 05 Oct 23:12

She was never on fire, but more a candelabra, controlled, beautiful, but never out of control. Then she had a massive depression due to work stresses (she cared for a death's door old lady in her home).

Since then I know that "I" changed. I gained a lot of weight, and shelled myself away. Even though she swears up and down that didn't affect her I'm sure it did. Since I've lost it all, and am back to pre marriage weight, and stronger than before. She knows she has a marked change but we can't figure it out. No bloodwork flags, nothing "looks" oriented, no cheating and it's baggage, etc. I think she's bought into the whole social mentality of "moms slow down" which I know is bullshit.

I will readily admit that since I'm way more fit, my drive has gone way up. I can easily take the responsibility that "I'm" the one that changed more drastically, but I just don't see that change as a bad think. How can wanting more of the most precious experience be wrong?

But drive aside, I just am saddened that old "normal" things like oral became taboo when for so many years they defined our whole sexual lives. To be honest, I'm thinking I need to just back off, as I'm wearing the topic out. I would give anything to help her blood sing, but ultimately I can't make it happen to her. And therein lies the rub I guess. So long as she's content I don't think a great deal will change, without something drastic like leaving which I just don't want. Sex isnt "that" important to me to give up on my whole family and friends circle.

Firmus

Posted: 05 Oct 23:12

Firmus, I'm sorry to hear about your frustration. And I know I'm not much of the person to advice you. But while reading it, I just got a thought; is she still her pre-marriage-weight? Has she changed physically in a negative way from her point of view? -Quite certain she did change after pregnancies- Does she still feel attractive? Also; does she still feel energetic and fit? I know a few mothers who complain about how they went to have kids as a couple, but she now feels like she's aged 10 years in 1 year, whereas he looks as great as he ever did and is still very energetic. Even though they do both share their tasks in the household and caring for the children, it's not taking it's "toll" on him as it does on her. Iow; could it be that you're outrunning her when it comes to your looks and your fitness?

Another thought: some mothers feel out-touched and out-caring, particularly while breastfeeding their children (I don't know how young your kids are?). They are touching and holding and kissing and caring so much that they just don't feel a need or the energy to do so for a husband. Which means that if there's intimacy, she's more likely to enjoy being cared for.

I know this doesn't address all parts of the issue as you've mentioned, but it does not necessarily have to be one answer to explain it all. I just thought this could be worth sharing.

RedRoses

Posted: 05 Oct 23:12

Actually, most mothers do slow down a bit because they have a lot more to do and just the same amount of time and they find themselves trying to cram 32 hours of work into 24. But a smart husband will help out with this either by picking up some of her burden (doing it himself or hiring it to be done) or by easing back on his demands and I'm not talking about sex here. Just exactly how clean does a house really need to be?

EvilEvilKitten

Posted: 05 Oct 23:13

My wife is one of those moms that other moms "hate". :)

She's a certified trainer and it far more fit now than she was 10 years abo before our 1st. At 34 most people think she's 25. She's a councilor at our high school, and the kids can't believe it when they see the pics of our kids (9, 7, and 5).

For a long time though up till 2 years ago she was a stay at home mom. I'm very much a helpful husband I do bills, cook, clean ad have a cleaning person, help with laundry, and have never had trouble doing dad things like watching kids alone all day. Granted I'm sure I'm not perfect, but I simple abhor that 1950's attitude some dads gave where wife does the house and he holds the couch down with the tv remote.

After another talk, one issue from being a mom that you both touched on was she spends all day in "kid mode" with either work or family, and she has a hard time shifting out of that. I think that's very valid, as I can't expect her to finish reading a Hello Kitty book then take me off for a quickie. I wish she had a "normal" adult job, so that she could better practice adult conversations, etc. All day now she's dealing with high school drama or horrible issues with parents.

Well, thank you both regardless. I plan to keep this thread updated as things unfold. I'm trying to keep a positive attitude as I fully feel that this is a workable issue.

Take care all!

Firmus

Posted: 05 Oct 23:13

Couple ideas hit me when you talk of her need for adult conversation and getting out of kid mode.

How accessible/nearby are Nana and Papa? Could the kiddos go for a weekend so Mom and Dad can have some adult time? Or, could the favorite sitter do an overnight with them at your place?

Speaking of which.....do you Date Night? If not, perhaps that's the way to start, and let a weekend/overnighter happen later.

T and I don't have children, but a few months before we got engaged, we almost ended. Long story short, we had grown to be hundreds of miles apart while sitting in the same two-bedroom apartment. This occurrence was two years into our relationship. I thank God every day that he called me the next morning, had made arrangements to get off work early and take me to lunch so we could, in his words, "figure out how we made it two freakin' years". Part of our remedy was to institute Date Night.

lnt1103

Posted: 05 Oct 23:13

We have a lot of people of all sorts of ages in our house but this house has three levels in it so the youngest are upstairs in their beds being watched by the youngest adult, hubby and I are lying on the floor next to each other snuggling while we watch tv, and the next youngest adult is downstairs on the gaming computer. This segmenting gives us all room to relax after dinner.

You might see about arranging something similar to where the kids are peeled off to their bedrooms/whatever leaving you two alone on the sofa.

Next, we only talk adult to the 4 and 5 year old anyway. This may account for their vocabulary and verbal skills being beyond their years but I can't imagine talking to a teenager as anything but an adult. Childhood is all very well and good but the point is to help the child become a happy and fully capable adult. Part of doing that is through demonstration. Kids have to see how adults resolve conflict, compromise, and work together to accomplish common goals.

So you'll see me explaining the concept of 'being worthy' to the 5 yr old while watching the movie Thor and reading stories about girls thwarting bullying by other girl at school. Include the kids as much as you feel comfortable but one step further. Your calm presence while introducing unfamiliar concepts will give them confidence and you a more adult environment.

EvilEvilKitten

Posted: 05 Oct 23:13

Update: She took a big step an initiated last night!! Granted it wasn't earth shattering. It was a simple question of "hey, I'm off my period if you wanna fool around." Still though I was very happy. Every journey starts with the first footfall. :)

One root cause we came up with the other night I think sheds some light on why we butt heads. I'm in an office alone all day, so when I want to relax I want her "with" me. I crave some type of physical contact and conversation, be it holding, kissing, heavy petting, or full on sex of sorts. She is all day talking to high school kids as a counselor, so her idea of relaxing is some independence, no conversation and plenty of personal space. Her favorite thing is to sit out on our sun porch and read alone. I can understand that, but obviously we need to meet in the middle. Right now we're even doing something as corny as just alternating days.

In reply to EEK just above, house arrangements were something we've discussed. We live in a really cool 100 year old house, but as most old houses go it's a privacy nightmare. Everything's 10' ceilings, many many giant windows, transom windows above the doors, and all hardwood floors that squeak if you THINK of setting foot on them. Also, we have a nice big open staircase from upstairs directly into the family room, so that room has little privacy either. I'm not afraid that we'll "scar" our kids if they peek their head around a corner, but it's enough of a visual that it keeps her from getting in the mood.

If you haven't figured out by now, she came from a very hardcore controlling family. Deprogramming is slow going. :)

The only issue I have with my home situation is our pets. We have 2 dogs and 2 cats, and they ADORE my wife (I don't blame them, I do too). Usually when we have sex, I have this row of eyes around me all staring with a look like "are you done yet?" and they all swoop in once I'm off to the bathroom or whatnot. One of our dogs is a little lap dog that I believe is trying to meld to my wife's thighs. He just doesn't take the hint to GTFO. I'm very pet oriented as well, but our current dogs are still new enough that they don't know the drill yet. Our last three (chocolate lab, chesapeake bay retriever, and St. Bernard) knew when I said "scram!" they would all jump down and hide in the closet. And yes our Saint slept with us.

We absolutely adore our home though, so we're trying to figure things out. Mostly right now though since our kids are in the "leave the light on and the door open daddy" at night, we tend to wait until everyone's out, then sneak around and close all the doors. This at least gives us a head up if they do wake up.

I admire the adult talk you mentioned EEK. We are very straight forward as well, but certain topics are still guarded, like sex. As creepy as it sounds I'd almost "wish" our kids would walk in once, just to get that out of the way and we can move beyond that "worry". I quoted that because we're both well versed in child care and development, her having an EDS is child psychology even. It's just that initial apprehension we have for them to start in with the questions we haven't had to talk about yet. We still bury our heads in the sand on the sex topic. Hell, we're still fretting when the "is Santa real?" question will happen. :)

Take care...

Firmus

Posted: 05 Oct 23:13

CONGRATULATIONS!!! This is very good news and I'm happy for you both!

So, you both come home from work, then who fixes dinner? I suggest you take the kids and do that, including setting the table, while she has some "quiet time" alone. Then dinner, kids taken care of and then you two get your time when she's ready to devote her attention to you so you can get your "cuddling time" in.

How's that sound?

Anyway - bend your minds to finding alone time and together time - I'm sure you will come up with answers.

EvilEvilKitten

Posted: 05 Oct 23:13

I'm up and going at 5, so I can run, eat, and get showered well before everyone else. Then I help get the kids up and going. Depending on if outfits are already picked out (I don't do this, because I suck at matching little girl outfits) I'll get them ironed if time allows. Wife gets everything else like hair, dressing, etc, at this point. Mostly just a lot of yelling at kids. LOL

I'm downstairs making real breakfasts every morning. I set the tables, and I do all the cleanup after. I've also started a load of laundry, and depending on what was in the dryer I'm folding while everyone eats. I'll make any lunches that need to be packed.

In the evenings, we have random activities like wife teaching at the gym, soccer, swimming, etc. Usually she will take them to these, and I'll stay home to cook. I like to cook, so this works out. I also make real meals, not just crock pot stuff. Things like:

- creole chicken over rice
- penne alla arribiata (with hand made tomato sauce)
- grilled pork, along with grilled veggies (asparagus, zucchini, red bell peppers, onions, and mushrooms)
- jambalaya
- gazpacho (in the hot summer)

When our girl friends all swap email recipes, they include me. :)

While I'm cooking I'm either doing laundry or practicing guitar. Again, I'll set all the places, and I do all the cleanup. I'm a very "neat" cook, and I don't like my pots and pans just crusting over till later. If everything works out I like dinner on the table with a kitchen that doesn't look like it's been used. After I clear the table and do the dishes. I make sure though that we have a nice sit down meal every day by 7:00 at the latest. Too many families skimp on having a traditional meal together.

Depending on how quick showers and bed stories take, I'm off to the gym by 8 or 9 at the latest, but that's only 2-3 times a week, and I gladly skip or reschedule if we want to be together.

But, I don't want to give the impression that I'm doing everything and she's on her ass all day. She's also doing way more laundry than I am, a lot more kid stuff, homeworks, errand running, "big" shopping trips (I buy per-meal groceries), etc. We have a cleaning lady, so major cleaning is off our hands, but we each do our little things. I'll sweep the floors as needed for example. We try to divide all the work, so no one ever feels they bare the brunt of the house. I HATE husbands that expect their wives to do the "women's work". They tease that I'm "whipped". Even if I was getting sex at a constant rate I would stay how I am. I do all this because I enjoy it, not because it's expected of me. It will hit them square in the face one day when they realize they've missed their family growing up, but that won't happen to me. :)

I'm sure once another 5 years have passed and all the kids are old enough to be more self sufficient then things will settle out for the better. Just right now we're in that "going going going" mode a lot. I've been setting up more dates for us, getting the sitter myself, etc. Even if all that means is going to the local pizza joint for an hour and and a beer once a week.

Firmus

Posted: 05 Oct 23:13

I completely agree with you about the importance of having a family dinner of real food. We have ours at 6 pm. Everyone adult, of which there are 4, takes turns cleaning up and cooking. The children set the table.

We have the work divided up into "management" and "labor" with my husband being "labor" since his work is at a desk and dealing with people. This gives him a break from having to make decisions and annoying his bossy, cold, unappreciative wife. "Go away, I'm doing math!" or "Isn't there something you could be doing in the garage?"

EvilEvilKitten

Posted: 05 Oct 23:14

Update... :)

I think we've hit a good point as to "her" sexual problems. I told her that I feel she has a wall built between us during sex, and that she has too many inhibitions. By that I don't mean boundaries like anal, but almost juvenile "I can't say/do things like that, I'll feel silly" type things. I think she doesn't realize what we can coax out of her if she just let herself go.

During our last talk she told me that during sex she completely blanks her mind out so that it feels better for her. The problem for me is this usually means she's borderline catatonic, like in a trance. She doesn't move and I can hardly even hear her breathe. If I pull her arms onto me (like I'm positioning a mannequin) they will stay put. No grasping, etc, until say the last minute before orgasm. During that minute she seems to wake back up and be a "human" again. This last time I asked her to take deep breaths just so I could gauge where along the cycle she was. When she's very still like this I take a very long time, as it's detracting from my enjoyment. Obviously, if your partner was completely still you're wonder if you're doing anything right or not, regardless if they say you are.

We've talked about how pulling herself in so deep like that is detracting from me, and here's where I wanted to run stuff by the peanut gallery. How do most of you "think" during sex? How much does your physical/mental participation help with your pleasure?

For example: For me, back in my "2 pump chump" days I used to clear my mind, trying to last as long as I can. Now that I'm a new man from all the weight loss, etc, I'm more in the 20-40 minute range, and I have to stay very conscious of what's going on to "force" it to be in the lower part of that time. Like I watch her body, I watch myself penetrating, I concentrate on where things feel good for her and for me, I "feel around" with my penis and pay attention to the feelings, lots of caressing, kissing, etc. I'm very in the moment, and I LOVE that I'm able to do that now. I used to be so obsessed with how fast I was I didn't enjoy sex.

So some of the things we talked about is her trying to be more focused on the physical sensations. What's going on in the now, how does my penis make her feel, feeling the heat of my skin, even using her finger tips to feel me penetrating her. She hates "dirty talk" in bed because she feels stupid doing it, but I suggested there are many other things, even simple "yes/no", "faster/slower", "I love this", "don't stop" innocuous things to focus her mind. Anything to draw her attention to what's going on, and not "everything else".

She's definitely a person that has too many thoughts going so I understand her motivation in clearing her mind. Last month mid sex she said "oh, we need to pay attention to how E (our 5 year old) brushes her teeth, as she had a spot show up on the x-ray at the dentist." Not a normal thought to have mid-sex. :)

We'll see how it goes tonight. I'm thinking we've found a golden nugget here. The pebble that maybe can start an avalanche.

Take care all...

Firmus

Posted: 05 Oct 23:14

Okay - try this:

"focus your mind on enjoying sex with me, how good this feels, and how much I please you"... and she doesn't have to actually TALK as in words - she can pur, growl, sigh, maon - make suitable noises indicative of enjoyment

EvilEvilKitten

~~~
Though I know it is difficult enough to find time for things, perhaps eeking out a little bit more for some wind down time prior to any activities would help? An evening stroll, nice shower or bath, and massage just to relax and help clear the mind. My preferred wind down activity is surfing while others might prefer gardening(mmmm fresh tomatoes and herbs) or oral sex :D. If you're able to find the time, you might even go for an early afternoon at a hotel sometime away from the kids and other distractions. You'll likely both have more energy midday and still make it home in time to put the kids to bed.

funinthesun

Posted: 05 Oct 23:14

What I noticed in your story is her breathing. That's rather important. Without breath, you can't feel. Without breath, you can't let go of weight holding you down (whether thoughts, pain, nerves, etc). It's what makes our energy flow through our bodies. So your advice to take a few deep breaths could be rather helpful! :) And since she's into trancing, here's something that you'd perhaps like to try. It's called: breathing with heart and soul. It's freeing and intimate at the same time. It creates a sort of trance that's focused on the unity of you.

Sit yourselves face-to-face in Lotus-position. This position is spiritual to many, aligns your bodies and allows energy to flow freely. If this is uncomfortable; you can do this in any position where your bodies are aligned with your hearts at the same level. You can hold each other from the start. But if you need more time to calm and connect -and it sounds like she needs that- you may like to start with putting your right hand on her heart, she folds her left hand over yours. She puts her hand on you in the same way. You could also chose to put hands on each other's belly's. You can feel each other's heartbeat or the way each of you breaths. Now breath in the same pattern. Inhale at the same time. Breath calm and towards your belly. Slowly make your breathing more deep and profound. Take your time. Exhale about twice as long as you inhale. This calms your breathing.

While you breath in the same rhythm, it synchronizes you. If you'd like; you can even exhale with sounds that are connected to parts of your body. "Aah" is for the heart. "Ooh" is for the belly. "Ouh" for the sacral/genital area. You don't have to, but it can be very freeing. Let it all out in the way you'd like! :)

Should she feel like her head is still filled with thoughts and it blocks you from achieving rhythm and calm. Try a few powerful exhales. Imagine each thought that disturbs your calm leaving you with each breath. You're blowing those thoughts outside your intimate circle.

Once you've both cleared your mind and established this synchronized breathing, you can start breathing into each other. She exhales, while you inhale and vise versa. Your inhales and exhales are preferably just as long now. Making your energies flow through you. At this moment, if you aren't close already, you may like to sit closer to each other and hug up. Even proceed to penetrating if you're both up for it. While you're inside her, it's particularly beautiful, because it completes a circle of connection within your bodies. Energy flows through you as one. Make your breathing more powerful and shorter. Breath fire into each other. You will know when the point is there the fire explodes :rolleyes: Seal your fire with kisses and let your bodies swirl.

This really isn't like an instruction on tantra-love or something. It's to be used as input, not an example to copy. Do it the way you feel like it. The way that fits you both. My lover and I used to often do this while we lay naked belly to belly with me on top of him flat (legs stretched, feet touching); optimal skin-to-skin-contact. We never planned on it or talked about it. We simply liked it and anticipated on each other's breathing. Breathing into each other becomes almost necessity as one belly that swells means the other is pushed in. I only found out this type of ritual has a name, after we had discovered these benefits.

> How do most of you "think" during sex? How much does your physical/mental participation help with your pleasure?
Think? When do I have time for that? :rolleyes: This is exactly the reason why I always told him beforehand what the state of my fertility cycle was. It was the last thought to enter both our minds, to make it stick throughout. While I have sex, I feel and all is focused on that. I hardly speak, but scream, growl, moan and giggle, accordingly. My feelings are not just mine; I'm focused on his as well. It's why simultaneous action is like a very pleasant overload.

Good luck and have fun on your journey of renewed discovery!

RedRoses

Posted: 05 Oct 23:14

And as for thinking during sex - I'm not thinking at all! I'm feeling the heat cascading through my skin. I'm listening to my blood roaring and singing in my veins. Gasping for breath and holding onto him for dear life and crying out with exaltation while demanding more, more and more.

EvilEvilKitten

Posted: 05 Oct 23:14

My husband and I have been on the program for a while now and I gotta say I'm happier then ever. It has made our good sex life into an amazing one. I orgasm at many of the steps at least once. Multiply that by 3 or 4 times and I'm coming 25-50 times a night. Woohoo.

My husband told me about where he found the program recently and I had to just thank this community. For anyone who hasn't tried the program you have to make it a part of your life. Every relationship should have it.

Thank you again.

Rhazelle

Posted: 06 Oct 00:30

Thank you, Rhazelle. My teddy bears and I are very happy we could help.

EvilEvilKitten

Posted: 06 Oct 00:30