OP: Blowjobs stopped after getting married...

NO NO NO

Nothing but face to face and heart to heart is going to change this.
You need to get SERIOUS and be seen by her as being SERIOUS which a letter - just another piece of paper that she'll read when she gets around to it.

Stop being so diffident! Start being demanding.
You're fighting for the rest of your love-life - so just how important is it to you, buddy?

Speak to loverofcurves - he had the same issue, used The Program - and now, well, they're not getting divorced any time soon! *EG* His lady has become the Lioness he always knew she was. From zero to 60 in less than 4 months! (yes he gave me permission to use him as a referral)

EvilEvilKitten

Posted: 06 Oct 22:27

Michael,

Your post is a salutary reminder to seize the moment. We may not only have one life, but we only have one life as the flesh and blood people we now are; and I can't count the number of times I've heard stories of those on their death beds regretting not what they did with their time but what they didn't do.

I've found these last three years very revealing, even though they've coincided with the oral drought. It's been like rolling a large, heavy stone from where it's always laid, and finding all manner of obscure truths hiding underneath.

The oral veto from my wife coincided with her general loss of interest in sex. I was patient, initially, because I put this down to the menopause; but then I laid it on the line concerning initiation and frequency. My wife agreed surprisingly wholeheartedly, and we addressed that problem and have solved it. However, although I felt completely justified in insisting she be more sexually active, and responsive, I haven't felt the same certainty about insisting that I decide what we actually do, sexually.

The unfortunate corollary of this has been twofold. One, there has been an increase in the amount of sex we enjoy, but a decrease in emotional contact during sex. Two, there has been a diminution of variety.

It is, as you say, "as if, as our marriage progressed, she became more like a man in her sexual responses and I more like a woman ..."

What I've realised, recently, is that I crave, sexually, not so much the fellatio and cunnilingus I don't have, but what those practices represent for me: passion, intensity, focus; and maybe most of all, intimacy.. When my wife and I engage in sex these days, although it might be much more frequently than before, and although it might be at any moment of the day, and in any place in the house or garden (all fantastic advances from the norm), there's still something lacking.

A couple of times, my wife has mentioned not wanting to 'lose control', sexually. It is as if she fears doing something she would later regret. Unfortunately, it's precisely that aspect of our lovemaking that I find so attractive, and miss so much. It's also what I imagine lies at the heart of the oral veto: my wife used to 'lose control' regularly, and during those times oral sex became something she was happy giving and receiving. When she came back to earth, she must have regretted this. As time went by, she has evidently decided 'staying on earth' feels a lot safer!

By 'loss of control' I don't mean everything goes out of the window; but I do remember reading a novel once which had a sex scene where the narrator, describing it, said he was so consumed with passion that if a stranger had come into the room with a knife and proceeded to plunge it into his back he would barely have noticed. It's that sense of both of us being utterly consumed by the occasion that seems to have gone missing; and every ploy I summon up fails to rekindle it.

The only sexual activity that instantly transports my wife from a 'butterfly' state of mind to a more animalistic engagement with the here and now, is intercourse. Anything that delays this is barely tolerated. So, a kiss and a cuddle that aren't going to lead to anything more are fine; and a kiss and a cuddle that are going to lead to more intense kissing and cuddling are fine, too, up to a point; but the reality of the more intense kissing and cuddling acts as a stimulus for her to either want penetration as soon as possible, or if that is out of the question, to wait until it is possible, rather than prolong the agony.

I say 'agony' because my wife gives every impression that time spent in a state of sexual excitement, even low grade sexual excitement, where she hasn't become properly aroused, that doesn't involve penetration, or near penetration, is not just wasted time, but painful for her to be engaged in.

For a short period, I suggested we make love without penetration, at all. For her, that fell outside the definition of lovemaking. She implied it was cruel of me to insist on it. So we tried delaying penetration for a fixed period of time; but she got bored with the wait. We tried Karezza - penetration but no orgasm, for either of us. That was enjoyable, but her desire was to sleep almost as soon as we had got started, whereas mine was to continue, and skirt around the edge of orgasm, for a while, which, again, she found 'painful'. We tried sensate focus, which frankly, we would have been better off employing on tailor's dummies.

I think it boils down to what we're willing to pay attention to and focus on. Everyone is different, in this respect. I've discussed the issue with my wife, and she agrees it's a problem. There are innumerable activities she engages in so wholeheartedly it is often difficult for me to get her attention. In many ways, I consider her my teacher in the art of 'living for the moment'. She can work in the garden, clean windows, cook, play with children, do Sudukos, with a commitment and an attentiveness and longevity that dissolves to nothing as soon as we engage in lovemaking. Too often, she asks if 'we're going to finish soon', when I feel as though we've barely started, or 'I'm tired', when I'm feeling on fire. It's as if, in her mind, with every one of her favoured occupations, she is saying, to herself, "just five minutes more", because she is enjoying it so much, whereas when making love, she is hearing herself say, "That's enough, now", very soon after starting.

The odd part of this is that she enjoys sex; she just doesn't seem to be able to enjoy it as much as she did, which was probably never as much as she could.

Bouledoux

Posted: 06 Oct 22:27

Update
I thought I would provide an update, even though it tells against me, to some extent. First off, I haven't yet tried the Program. I told myself I would, as I waited for my wife to return from a trip overseas. That was nearly two months ago. Then I told myself I would wait for warmer weather, as my wife is extraordinarily sensitive to cold. When we make love, she's very aware of the temperature, particularly when we begin, and usually has to be partially clothed or covered. Myself, I could be outside in the snow, and not turn a hair. Anyway, I decided I would wait for the sort of weather where it is possible to lie around naked with no thought of either clothes or sheets, because it seemed to me that the Program required my wife to not do a great deal, and I was concerned she would pay more attention to the question of being cold than her own excitation, which would defeat the point.

At the back of my mind, I did wonder if I was prevaricating for other reasons; but the only ulterior motive I could discern was fear that any eventual attempt of the Program on my part wouldn't have the desired effect.

What effect did I desire? I started this thread because I was missing oral sex; so, to have that back would be wonderful. But I have came to realise what I am really missing, of which mutually enthusiastic oral sex is a part, is my wife as an overtly, brazenly sexual being. Although we make love regularly, and both enjoy it, I'm belatedly realising that my wife doesn't become truly involved - passionately, vocally, unequivocally - until she is maybe three quarters of the way to orgasm. Anything short of half-way, and it is as if she is only joining in with part of her mind. The other part might be contemplating any number of other subjects. And, of course, because she isn't completely 'there', she doesn't become aroused easily, which further delays her metamorphosis into a sex tigress.

So, one fear I had was that any attempt on my part to do the Program, which by its nature has a long, slow build up to eventual orgasm, could result in my wife only having half a mind for what I was doing. That might make it tricky to persevere - along the lines of talking to someone who isn't really listening. I got so concerned about this - while waiting for hotter weather - that I began to think the instructions for the Program left a bit to be desired. I felt they weren't precise enough, for me. It was like a recipe that was too vaguely worded; I wanted something more exact.

As it happened, I came across what I thought of as an alternative, minutely choreographed version of the Program. It began with a full body massage, which led to an erotic massage, ending in a detailed labial massage, followed by very slow cunnilingus, a clitoral orgasm, then manual stimulation, a g-spot orgasm, and finally a mixture of both oral and manual, with a blended orgasm. What I liked was the precision of the instructions. I printed them out and tried to learn them by heart.

The anticipated hot weather arrived. We agreed a time, I got the oil out, and we started. I expended quite a bit of effort with the full body massage, so I was more than a trifle disappointed after I had moved on to the labial massage, by which time, according to the instructions, my wife should have been so 'hot' it would be all I could do to prevent her reaching down and fondling her own genitals. In fact, she had not stirred; there was no flush of excitement on her face; her breasts were not engorged; her breathing remained placid. It was, unfortunately, as if I had been trying to arouse a dead fish.

As I progressed with the labial massage, feeling rising confidence that this, at least, would produce some sort of response, my wife asked me why I had omitted to massage her arms. I was nonplussed. The answer was, the arms hadn't been part of the deal! The 'full' body massage had left them out. I mumbled petulantly that her job was not to wonder about what I was, or wasn't, doing; but to simply enjoy the experience of it. She then said she couldn't do that as she was concentrating on remembering what I did so she could do the same in return!

We moved on. The labial massage was supposed to be followed by a very detailed, extraordinarily slow cunnilingus session. It sounded just the ticket; but, obviously, we couldn't do that. Had my wife been finely primed, I might have attempted the merest brush of my mouth on her genitals, especially since she had a scarf covering her eyes, and might not have immediately discerned what part of my anatomy was doing what; but she was obviously more acutely keyed in to the exact practicalities of what was taking place than the sensations produced by it.

Following the cunnilingus section was manual stimulation. We skipped straight to that. This required first and foremost that my wife was at least partially aroused. She clearly wasn't. Matters degenerated from that point into a not atypical masturbatory session where my wife got stiffer and stiffer as she tried muscularly to 'reach orgasm' while I fingered her clitoris until she did.

That effectively ended matters. My wife has never shown the slightest interest in a second orgasm following her first, at least not on the same day; so my hopeful request that we could start again fell on stony ground. Instead, she said she would return the favor the next day. I didn't have the heart to say that form of favor wasn't what I wanted so much as for her to eat me alive, there and then!

This isn't intended to be a gripe at my wife. She responded to what I did, and I think what I did - which wasn't the Program - was at fault. I'm no longer convinced that the recipe I had is worth following - at least with her. Maybe no recipe of that sort is. I'm absolutely positive I have the key to unlock the door that will transport her to a place of sexual abandonment, well before the last stages of intercourse, but for a long time I've felt I've been fumbling with a changed lock, using mostly a bunch of uncut blanks.

I've just sat down and studied The Program again and the differences between it and my 'alternative program' are stark. With what I did, I was following a set of procedures that didn't take into account my wife's responses, or lack of response. I just ploughed on, regardless. Also, I went from Massage (1), through a lukewarm version of Erotic Massage (2) directly to Manual Stimulation (4). Body Worship (3) was not in my recipe; and yet, I think it's probably the most important element of The Program.

So, I'll start again, hopefully tomorrow. Luckily, the weather's looking good for the foreseeable future.

Bouledoux

Posted: 06 Oct 22:27

I can't say, at my tender age and with longest lasting relationship having lasted but a fraction of the time you and your wife have been together, that I've been in a situation like yours. I can say, though, that I've had the experience of being with someone who is as inexperienced and un-sexual as they come, and being the one who has poked and prodded her in the direction of discovering her own sexuality... She's gone from someone who never masturbated to someone who does regularly, and from someone who couldn't be physically aroused by my tenderest efforts with hand or tongue to someone who gets wet at what sometimes seems like the drop of a hat, and LOVES cunnilingus.

What I wish to convey is how I think this came about.

I suspected that my girlfriend's lack of response was not due to some deficit in my sexual technique; there was no technical 'key' that would unlock her sexuality. It sounds like your wife is much the same: Her problem isn't with how she's being stimulated but rather with how she reacts to stimulation.

In my girlfriend's case, I believe that this was both because of her inexperience and her attitudes towards sex. She had not had what I would call a 'sex positive' upbringing. Not especially sex-negative, either... More like 'we don't talk about that.' It sounds to me like you have ample reason to suspect that your wife's change in sexual response is at least partly due to some change in her attitudes regarding sex and sexuality, which is why I dare to venture that my girlfriend's path towards what I would call a healthier sexuality is one your wife could walk.

Firstly there is the matter of how one goes about attempting to change another person's attitudes. Overt efforts at persuasion are likely to meet with defeat. Social psych research has shown that when a person knows that someone else is attempting to persuade them, they are less likely to be persuaded. I therefore suggest that you avoid doing so, and instead try to persuade her in a more subtle manner: Obliquely introduce her to the way that YOU view sexuality, and allow those notions to roll around in her head some.

I think that introducing the concept of a 'healthy' and 'natural' sexuality is a very important step. If she is indeed hewing closely to an indoctrinated view of sexuality, then (obliquely!) give her OTHER views to consider, and maybe she'll decide she likes them better. Find ways to expose her to sex-positive material, once again WITHOUT making it obvious that you are doing so intentionally and with the intent to persuade her.

It may seem that I am beleaguering this point, and I suppose I am. It is a very important point. It may also seem manipulative, and by some definitions it may be, but as long as it isn't done with deception I don't regard it as morally questionable.

Exposure to information on the physical/mental/spiritual benefits of a more relaxed and open sexuality might help, as well as exposure to the idea that many people actually view sexuality in such lights.

You probably get the drift. Over time, subtly suggesting to your wife that a less restrictive view of sexuality is healthier and more natural may change her attitudes.

This is more or less how things went with my girlfriend, except that because she had a less actively *negative* attitude towards sexuality I was able to be somewhat more explicit about my desire to change her attitudes. And if you feel that your wife can handle it without becoming defensive (and you're comfortable doing so), you can try telling her that you think that her attitudes are less than healthy, but from the way things SOUND I'm not sure that'll work very well.

Pill

Posted: 06 Oct 22:28

My wife has very fixed opinions about certain matters. When she makes up her mind on something, it's set, like concrete. Her convictions can crumble, though. It usually happens in a rush, from something she experiences directly rather than from something she reasons out.

I think maybe if she heard or was exposed to the sort of information you suggest from other people she respected it might influence her; but from me, she would know what was at the back of my mind, and would resist all the harder. In fact, I think that's more or less what has happened.

That's why I had hoped going to a therapist might help.

Any direct appeal by me to my wife's rational mind seems a waste of time. I go along with Freud's notion of each of us being made up of an ego (our responsible adult), an id (our irresponsible child) and a superego (our concerned parent). Hopefully, in our sex lives, we can indulge the child in us, within the bounds of adult reason, without our parent proclaiming this is wrong.

I want to indulge the child in me by enjoying sex as much as possible; my adult is okay with this; so is my parent. My wife has a child who I'm sure would like nothing better than to indulge herself; but the adult in her has become far less accommodating, over time; and her parent is stricter and more vocal than before. In my opinion, her child is sexually subdued.

My task, as I see it, is not to try and persuade her adult of the error of its ways (I've tried); still less try to convince her parent it's misguided (an impossible task); but to try and liberate her child.

Does that make sense? It's how to do it that's troubling me!

Bouledoux

Posted: 06 Oct 22:28

So Bouledoux it appears that your concerns range far wider than an "oral veto."
Pill is on to something in his post. One thing that could change her attitudes and thinking would be for her to have contact with other women, whom she trusts, who are comfortable with exploring sexually, perfecting their techniques and learning new ones and are comfortable with enjoying sex and with the idea that is is a good thing to keep their partners sexually happy. I don't know if she has friends like these, she probably does. I know that I owe a lot in my married sex life ,from basic BJs to some advanced kinks, to my wife's acquaintances and exposure to other people's tastes.

dlb

Posted: 06 Oct 22:28

Well, sort of. I mean, whenever we engaged in oral sex (both fellatio and cunnilingus) I got the distinct impression my wife was relishing every moment of it; but I also got the impression a part of her, which got left behind in the heat of the moment, remained unenthusiastic. This part is what now seems to have grown to dominate her sexual behavior. It started off vetoing oral sex, and now it's also vetoing any sort of excitement that might lead to oral sex. So, the absence of oral sex, which was my original concern, has led to a decrease in her relish for all forms of abandonment during sex, which has made me realize there is more to my sense of loss than I originally thought.

The odd thing is, we are making love more often, in a greater variety of settings, with greater freedom (possibly due to children leaving home and no more conception worries) than ever before; and yet, there's a massive taboo around what we can and can't do that seems to have diminished our ability to give ourselves wholeheartedly to each other.

Unfortunately, I don't believe my wife has the sort of friend who would talk about sex openly, if at all. If they did, she probably wouldn't reciprocate. She might talk about it, in a clinical way, with her sister; but not in any personal detail. She would definitely consider her sex life too private for that. She found talking to the therapist, who was a complete stranger, very uncomfortable.

Bouledoux

Posted: 06 Oct 22:28

Sounds like she isn't in a very sex-positive environment! (aside from her husband)

One of the few effective ways I know of to shake someone who is set in his or her ways is, in two words, peer pressure.

Peer pressure gets a bad rep because it's a term associated with kids getting other kids to drink and do stupid things. The truth is, though, the mechanisms underlying peer pressure are necessary for a cohesive society.

Anything you can do to maximize her exposure to other people (especially groups of people, and in person is of course by far most effective) with different attitudes will probably help, bit by bit.

Pill

Posted: 06 Oct 22:28

Short of taking her along to a swingers club, I'm not sure how this could be achieved; but I do think it's a good idea, nevertheless. Most of the contemporary sexual influences on my wife do seem to be negative ones, whether they come from books, films, current affairs or even word of mouth. Most of what affects her seems to strike a chord with her background morality, which gives it double verification, in her eyes.

We had a discussion last night which was quite revealing. It concerned her breasts. She wears no bra and I like nothing better than to reach from behind and cup them in my hands. I also like kissing, nibbling, nuzzling, them. She has recently seemed to endure rather than enjoy overt sexual attention to her breasts, and last night I asked why. Specifically, I demonstrated what I liked to do, and asked if it was pleasurable or not.

It turned out that she found it pleasurable but that that pleasure set up a conflict in her head. She claimed her body was receiving messages from my stimulation that asked her breasts to produce milk, and that that was not something she wanted to happen, because she believes it is for babies only. I agreed that that was the purpose of breast milk; but I doubted she would produce any from the relatively innocuous stimulation I was giving. (Anyone who has experienced a baby sucking on one of their fingers can attest to the extraordinary vigour of their demand).

It then turned out that she thought sexual attention to the breasts, and by definition, sexual indulgence on the part of women, were a prime cause of breast cancer. She believed repeated attempts on the part of the body to produce milk when it was clearly unable to do so compromised its normal functioning. As an adjunct to this, she suggested breasts had come to the fore in terms of attractiveness to men, and sources of sexual pleasure to women, only as a result of men denying women the right to breastfeed, through mass production and marketing of bottled milk.

So there I was. I could touch her breasts and she found that acceptably pleasurable; but if I did any more than that, although she still found it pleasurable, concern started mounting in her that further indulgence might not only be doing her harm, but would somehow exonerate 'man's' perfidy. That concern then began to turn what was previously pleasurable into an irritance.

In a nutshell, why should I, being a man, and therefore indirectly responsible for denying women their right to breastfeed, with the hidden motive of guarding and deifying the breast as a sexual object, which as a result, caused breast cancer, be rewarded, firstly by being allowed to stimulate her in this area, and secondly by her finding the experience pleasurable?

Interestingly, the only time my wife openly relishes breast stimulation is in the later stages of intercourse. Again, it seems she loses her inhibitions only when she's moved beyond a certain threshold.

I hope this doesn't sound like I'm ridiculing my wife. To a certain extent, I share her views; but I also happen to believe breasts are as valid an erogenous zone as any other, that 'sexual suckling' in not injurious to their health, and that she shouldn't be afraid of allowing herself to experience pleasure through them.

I don't believe any amount of logic expounded by me will change my wife's underlying views on this subject. I may, however, be able to bring forward her 'inhibition threshold', somewhat. At any rate, that's what I'm working on at the moment. However, peer pressure, as you describe it, might well help to change her beliefs.

I'm a member of a men's group. We sit and chat, every month or so, on various subjects. We've never talked about sex, though; or not in any serious, detailed way. Maybe women's groups exist in our neighborhood; I've heard women are more likely to talk intimately amongst themselves than men.

Bouledoux

Posted: 06 Oct 22:28

Sex begins in the brain.

Your attitudes regarding sex, sexual matters, and sexual practices will influence your sex life and the pleasure you enjoy during sex profoundly, as you all have discovered.

Yes, The Program is deliberately vague and un-detailed precisely because I, its authoress, cannot foresee your partner's responses. You are to explore and modify based upon the responses you receive. Take your time, go slowly, take notes of what works and what doesn't - for your partner.

There is no 'secret silver bullet' - you must invest the time and attention to sex to get the most from sex. I have spent the better part of 40 years studying sex, discussing sex, investigating sex, and having sex and I still do not know everything. Close but not yet.

I would recommend getting with your local swing/Lifestyle group because she will be able to discuss matters with women who have 'been there' and have gone through it. Discussion helps.

EvilEvilKitten

Posted: 06 Oct 22:28