OP: Relationship reverting back to just friends...

Calliton, thank you! That's sweet.
EEK, how could loving someone sincerely ever be wrong? I agree with you.

Here's an update. Sooner than I expected. I've noticed it's at least helpful for me to write it down to other people, as it seems to force me to put things in understandable order, making it more clear in my head. And again, I would appreciate any of your replies. Since even the smallest sincere comment can at least help me of keeping my wits together.

I don't know where I am now, except for being particularly vulnerable. I just got terribly upset last evening. He wouldn't french kiss me. And I just had to ask him why he couldn't. Despite of any agreement or state of our relationship, which I'm sure I violated. To which he hugged me for a long time and I started crying as he did. He said he probably needs time and space. I asked him how much. As I felt my heart sink, because I honestly don't know how much I can give him...

We had a very honest talk after that. He's very confused over it, because he thinks I'm such a great girl. He loves everything we do together. As he put it: "even getting groceries together with you is fun!". I'm going to memorize that quote, cause I think it's one if the sweetest things anyone has ever said to me :) I asked him what went wrong and when this had suddenly become about me. First he was too tired, then he was too ill and somewhere along the way; it had become about me. And I don't understand what I did wrong. He thinks perhaps what went wrong is that at many times he now cares and worries about me too much. That this takes so much energy that there's none left for anything else between us. It sometimes makes him feel like we have a father-daughter-relationship. He can get genuinely scared of the thought of something happening to me. And on other moments; we just have so much fun together. At such time I feel more like a sister to him. Even when he sees me running naked through the house, I'm more like his sister (the sister he never had, that would be ;))

I asked him whether he's still in love with me. "No, because I think it's much more than that... I... I love you." To which he smiled and giggled. He never says he loves me. He always says that it's a too formal of a word. That it's become meaningless by how people throw it around. The way he said it now was genuine.

We've talked about what we think this relationship needs.

1) Does it need patience? I've given him so much already... "Perhaps I don't need your patience. Perhaps I need you to tell me". To which I laughed. We both know that if I put any pressure on him, he goes running or hiding and will say "no" like any toddler who's learned the powerful meaning of the word, only to avert doing anything he might possibly not want. He agreed. If I would ask him to chose me or it's over, he'd probably chose the latter. Also by his attitude towards life; that nothing is ever final. If it's meant to be and feels right, we would grow back together again.

2) Should we break up definitely, remaining friends? He never wants to lose me as a friend. I mean too much to him. Which is likewise. Also; if this does repair, it would make us genuinely chose for each other again, instead of muddling on and trying to fix things on the way. He agrees with the lot of you fine people that if I'd go out and date and try out a new relationship or even have meaningless sex, even if we'd get back together, that would just make me more experienced and nothing is wrong with that. Just as much as there would be nothing wrong with it if I wouldn't. Or perhaps I'd just find that special guy who would be as thrilled as I am to start a family. And he'd be there for me as my friend and surely come to see the baby. He thinks I will be able to look at other people in a sexual way. Before him I couldn't. But since this desire has awoken inside me, there's quite a chance I could feel it for another. He thinks it's a matter of whether I'd be ready to do so... Off course he can't be sure of how these things work as little as I am.

3) Should we seek counseling? After all; it's still unclear to either of us whether his lack of sexual desire is related to me. Or if it's related to the last time we were intimate resulting in pregnancy and early miscarriage. Whether nothing of this really is about our relationship, since for the past year he finds himself incapable to sexually desire other women as well. I'm going to see my counselor the day after tomorrow and I don't think she does couple-counseling, but she could quite possibly refer me to someone. He told me he would talk to a professional and suggested for me to ask her.

I'm thinking this may actually be a good idea. I suggested it to him before. Because I feel that either way, we'd need to fix this father-daughter-thing. I don't feel that way and surely don't want him to. Whether in a friendship or relationship with someone, I want the foundations of it to be on equality. Which was the case with us. But apparently something has gone crooked. I could live with the brother-sister-thing. I too regard him as close to me as family. Not the entire way of "family" I had wanted it, but it's equal enough ;)

4) One thing we did agree on. I was busy writing him a letter. I had planned to give it to him, even read it out loud, at the end of this holiday. It states what I want, how I feel, what he means to me. It's not quite finished yet. Though it's becoming quite to the point and even compact for my writing ;) He requested me to finish. He promised he would read it and not neglect to respond to it (as happened to the letter I wrote over a year ago).

Probably worth mentioning. He toyed with my clothes. Unwrapped my shirt and pulled it over my shoulders. Looked at my strapless dress in great approval, telling me I look good. He kept caressing my back as we hugged. Until it came to a point I told him that I didn't want him to do anything he didn't want to. But that if he would continue that way, I would surely orgasm. So if he didn't want that... To which he started kissing my neck and putting more pressure on my lower back to make me come. He smiled and whispered I was such a funny and special girl. I came 3 times in a row, soaking my underwear as I ejaculated and quivered in his arms after. Those were one of the best orgasms I've had in months. I could see he was getting uncomfortable at the time I was on his lap and kissed him. "Do you mind?"- "Well... yes, actually, I do... a little..." I told him I was sorry and asked him why he had gone on. "Because there's really nothing that terrible about making you enjoy yourself" - "So you did it for me?"- "Well... yes."- "That's sweet..." I didn't know whether to feel happy of him being so sweet to me or feel awful about myself. And I didn't know what to say, except: "I'm so sorry"- "Don't be. It's really a pleasure doing that for you. I just don't..."- "I'm sorry"- "Don't be, my sweet". Sometimes I'm like a broken record that gets stuck on "sorry" and crying in between...

RedRoses

Posted: 06 Oct 00:05

Roses, I did read your post and I feel that a 1 and 3 in your post will apply. Getting help would only make things more clear to the both of you. It may help you both understand how you feel about the other in regards to many issues. I feel your pain in your words and I also know what a man feels after the loss of a child.

Studmuffin

Posted: 06 Oct 00:05

Dear RR,

This may be the problem: "And I don't understand what I did wrong."

Most likely you did nothing wrong. What causes my dismay is your assumption that you are responsible for this relationship. It probably wasn't that he doesn't want to french kiss you, he just didn't want to french kiss you THEN, for example. You're stressing and he worried for you and all of these issues are just - wrapping both of you so tight around the axle that neither of you can breathe or think straight.

Relax. You yourself know that when you 'push' he 'runs'. So stop pushing. This isn't patience so much as 'loving lightly' - making your love for him no more than he can bear. Do not ask him if he loves you - by his actions you should know. I'd say that he does love you but isn't confident enough in himself to handle it. He needs to "love lightly" as well.

Stop, stop, stop apologizing!! You cannot apologize for being who you are - yegods, woman! You're a wonderful, caring person; never apologize for it!

EvilEvilKitten

Posted: 06 Oct 00:06

Thank you for that kind post, EEK :) You too Studmuffin. And I'm so sorry for your loss.

Well, I must confess I am not feeling much relaxed lately, even though I try not to get worked up too much. And I certainly try not to project it on him. But I've felt awful from the moment I set foot back into my house, returning from our trip abroad. It feels so heavy; as if it is contaminated with emotions. I walked in, thinking; this is not mine and I do not want to be here. On top of that; my salary has been cut back significantly and I'm looking into the best way to handle my finances at the moment. I've been able to make it on little before, so I'm sure with effort, I'll make it again. It was just not something I needed to add now. Moreover: I'm going to the hospital next week for a medical exam that failed in the past, because I panicked at the time. In consultation with my treating specialist, it was decided to cancel at the time. But since I've been having rather bad health episodes lately, it has been ordered it again. I'm really trying to be a big girl about it. I'm actually a bit ashamed that I couldn't before; that much of a bit I don't really speak about it. But honestly: even thinking about it makes my knees grow weak. At the time; I had not expected myself to panic in any way. I was rather relaxed prior, as doctors say I usually am. I'm praying this won't happen again. I will inform whoever performs it. And I hope that they will take my angst seriously and try to anticipate on it... He will take me to the hospital, comfort me while we wait, stay waiting for me in the hallway, take me home after. And I've told him about everything I fear. And I must say; I've never met someone who's better at handling a person in panic or distress, than he is. But I'm guessing it does mean I am putting some of my worries on him...

I should add that despite health issues, we did have an amazing time on our trip. I totally got to unwind. And we got to walk a lot daily, which I adore doing. It exceeded my expectations, since I was in rather poor condition. Ever since we came back; I've left him to do whatever he wanted, which meant he was alone for a couple of days. I've started on yoga-classes again. And I am still working on my carrier-change. Since I like the subject so much; I consider my study books more a part of relaxation than a chore. I've seized each moment on my balcony to relax in a little bit of autumn sunshine.

RedRoses

Posted: 06 Oct 00:06

I have to agree with EEK. It sounds to me like he's grown to love you so much, so deeply, that it scares him a little. I also have to agree with "stop apologizing". His reactions to his feelings are his, and as such are his responsibility, not yours.

And I would add, don't feel horrible about yourself for letting him do for you what he did for you. He wanted to. It was his choice. It sounds to me like he enjoyed doing it--it made him happy to make you happy. You even gave him "an out", and he chose to continue on because he wanted to help you experience that pleasure. You did nothing wrong. Moreover, it's a natural reaction to want to reciprocate--to want to do that for him for all the same reasons he did it for you. He wanted that moment to be about you, and thus requested that reciprocating not occur. You complied. Nothing to apologize for there either.

In fact, everything in the previous paragraph seems like a very mutually loving relationship to me.

lnt1103

Posted: 06 Oct 00:06

Okay - so you're scared about this medical test.
Tell me:
1. will the test itself kill you?
2. will the test be horrendously painful?
3. will the test be somewhat painful?
4. Is the test be embarrassing?
OR
5. Are you really scared of what the results might say?

Instead of accepting fear - pinpoint exactly what you fear and why you fear it. The sit down and contemplate 'so what' or if you prefer "and..?" Because of the choices above only #1 matters. If death will not occur then just ask for some meds and get on with the test.

To help with the anxiety - take your textbooks along with you and do a bit of studying while you wait.

EvilEvilKitten

Posted: 06 Oct 00:06

lnt, thank you. I think you're right and we are loving each other dearly. It just gets frustrating to be dealing with fear all the time. He responds to me like a magnet flipping around it's axle. At one moment he'll run and hide away from me. At the other he draws up close. You're right; I didn't do something to apologize for. I guess I'm just scared he'll do something he doesn't want to and starts to resent me for it. He has admitted that I've made him cry (and he never cries) the time I asked him to have a talk with me (where this thread started). He sometimes seems to sacrifice all his energy in favor of me. He sometimes feels so responsible for me. The past year hasn't done much good to us. It's not much efficient that I'll tell him I'm a big girl and can take care of myself, whereas a few days later he's picking me up from the shower floor barely conscious as I've fainted.

EEK, it won't kill me :) An endoscopy is actually quite a standard exam. It can go from slightly uncomfortable to painful, particularly because my body is irritated and sensitive as it is right now. Furthermore: I seem to have a high tolerance for pain. So I'd consider it impossible to be in horrendous pain, unless something is really very wrong. Yes, it's embarrassing, but I'm used to doctors poking up every hole. And I'm usually able to be relaxed like a string puppet when they do that. I'll be bringing extra clothes just in case things get messy. Scared of the results; somewhat. I'm probably more scared of what the aftermath of the exam will be; how long I'll be feeling awful... And I don't like the preparation I have to go through prior, starting the night prior with laxatives, which I'm known not to respond well to and could have me feeling sick for hours prior to even being in the hospital. Then there's the enema, done mechanically at preset amount and speed, instead of at your own pace in your own time. If I do an enema at home, that's a major thing to do in itself. I really have to take that slow to not go dizzy or sick. Whereas there; within half an hour after I'll be expected on the examination table. Hoping I've managed to lose all the fluid prior, my insides sufficiently irritated and not even mentioning irritating the exit (which at such a time; is not interested at all in becoming an entrance :rolleyes:). Then they'll still have to start...

But the real problem would be the panic. The issue last time was that I had 3 people rising above me, handling my body, not telling me anything about what they were doing, not paying any attention to me as a person. While I hadn't been scared prior, only the natural little bit nervous, I just got so scared on that examination table. And when I do get very scared, I become unable to speak or move, break a sweat and become unresponsive, as I experience the world around me as blurry. Which is what basically happened. I only came back to my senses as they left the room and a nurse was padding my face with a wet washcloth; "that didn't go too well now, did it, deary?". Looking back at it; it was a response that probably relates to my sexual trauma. I didn't think too much of it at the time; just an unfortunate mishap and I was embarrassed I did. But nowadays, I'm all too familiar with panic attacks, as they started to appear regularly about a year ago. I now know my body can hyperventilate, fall down, lose consciousness, wake up in my own vomit. It's a bit unfortunate that once your body has responded that way, it's more prone to do it again. Let's just say I don't feel as much in control of my body as I used to.

I don't know if I have any options considering meds. The procedure can be done while I'm on intravenous sedation, but they'd rather not because it increases risks and you'll have to stay for a day in the hospital for observation (whereas I can leave right after now). Plus it requires a different type of referral from your doctor than I got (sigh). I think I will at least take some Valerian prior.

RedRoses

Posted: 06 Oct 00:06

Will you have a chance to discuss the endoscopy issues with the doctor between now and the procedure? Make it clear what happened and how you need them to behave toward you. If you need sedation, you need sedation.

A few years ago I had several surgeries on my eyes. First one was under general anesthesia, and after waking up I dry heaved every hour and a quarter for the first 24 hours solid. Once that ended, my BP dropped a bit and my temperature spiked a little, so they kept me yet another day at my mother's request. To this day I don't know if the third different IV medication they tried actually kicked it, or if it just ran its course. But the next time I went under a general, every staff member I came into contact with heard about my reaction to the anesthesia. I figured if everyone knew, the person who most needed the information was sure to get it. They gave me something (rather nasty and bitter) to drink before hand and I was fine. There has got to be something they can do for you.

lnt1103

Posted: 06 Oct 00:06

Ah hah! It was the "professional detachment" of the medical people that got you fussed, RR. I don't blame you in the least. The difference is that with me it is anger not panic that I go for. The scathing remarks are laced with some humor but they do get my message.

RedRoses

Posted: 06 Oct 00:06

lnt, I've just called the hospital and talked to a very nice lady. She explained I'll first have the enema, which will be done by a nurse that will not be present at the actual exam, to which I can point out any concern I may have about the enema. I'll have 30 minutes after that to do my business. Prior to the actual exam I'll get a 5-10 minute talk with the doctor who will perform it. Because this exam wasn't ordered by a hospital-doctor, they'll go over the complaints, explain what will happen during the exam and I can point out any concern I'll have. During the exam there will be a nurse at the head of the table (and my head ;)) who's job it is to comfort me. I can even hold her hand if I need to :) I can also watch the monitor where the inside of my colon will be visible. Strange as it sounds, I can imagine that could be soothing to focus on, since I always like to look in the mirror at what my dentist does. The doctor will tell me what (s)he's doing along the way, particularly since I've asked for that prior. After the exam, the doctor will discuss the primary findings. Recommendations and any results from possible biopsy will be send to my doctor. She also said I should not hesitate to take some Valerian prior if I want to. And that I should not neglect to eat in the morning. There's no need sober. Taking a bit of sugar between the enema and the exam is also fine, should I feel light-headed.

Thank you, EEK. I think "professional detachment" is the best word for it. My guess is at the time, it was different because I was already being treated by a specialist (so no chat prior). And they had probably neglected to wait for the nurse, who was later padding my face so gently. Maybe I should sharpen my claws prior, should they try something funny ;)

RedRoses

Posted: 06 Oct 00:07

There - that doesn't sound too bad, now does it?

EvilEvilKitten

Posted: 06 Oct 00:07

No, especially the nurse who will comfort me, sounds like a great plan! :) My bf (let's just call him that way to keep it easy ;)) was shocked about how I have been treated before. He has had this exam too, several times, at the same hospital I'll be having it. By his experience; the nurses there seem to be hand-picked for their compassion. I'll just try to count on that and not to worry :)

RedRoses

Posted: 06 Oct 00:07

Ok, I feel terrible :( The exam itself exceeded my expectations... in a very bad way.

I was rather relaxed prior. I was feeling awful for hardly sleeping as my intestines were having their own sadistic party, totally high on laxatives. I was more busy with feeling ill than feeling nervous. The nurse who gave me the enema was really comforting. She was very careful and also asked me all sorts of questions on how I was doing and what had brought me here. Very thoughtful. The enema was a tiny one of only 33 cl, which was far less than I had expected. Though it gave me a very burning feeling (like it was eating away the mucous of my rectum), which wasn't "normal" but perhaps the doctor would see the cause for that.

I walked in the doctor's office in a surprisingly relaxed mood. But the conversation with the doctor didn't go well from the start. He didn't look at me, either passed my face or towards the desk/floor. He wasn't interested in hearing why I was there, because he was "just" there to perform the exam (meaning that nice nurse now knows more about my complaints, than he does). He was rushing the conversation to get to the exam. I could barely squeeze it in between the lines that I had experienced panic in the past and had a history of hyperventilating. "Thank you for mentioning that". But as soon as we got into the examination-room, he forgot to tell his colleagues (only 2 minutes after I had mentioned it!!!), so I did. The male who was there to comfort me was kinda comforting, though not half as good as the nurse that had helped me with the enema. As they started, I felt the air blowing and it caused some discomfort, but little, so I was relaxing. "It's cramping", I heard them say, as I could see the tunnel on the monitor closing. They wouldn't turn it so that I could see it clearly, only from the side. In all the brochures it was said that you don't "feel" the tube moving, that the discomfort or pain is caused by the air in the colon. The cramps were manageable and so I wasn't expecting much trouble and relaxed a bit more.

They ran into quite a problem at the first corner; my colon was blocked. So all the devices were shut down and they started on water, more water, more power to the water (and the water was definitely too cold). Adding tools to get through it, turning the device to sucking instead of blowing air. That's where I had the first tears rolling over my face. The male said this was likely to be rather painful. As they broke through the barricade, I felt relieve. But instead of giving me a second to catch my breath, they steamed on. I inhaled screaming. I felt like being ripped apart. The woman behind me yelled "stop!", in the same way as she had prior yelled "blocked". The doctor sighed in frustration. I looked at the monitor where the tunnel was coated with filth and really barely anything to see. "How is it possible to be so blocked? I've been having diarrhea for days now..." And as I wanted to continue, they took the first opportunity of relaxed colon to push on. Every time they blew air in, I only felt the slight cramping. It was when he tried to push on, I got back into animal-like screams and the tears didn't stop flowing. The male with the job of comforting me got a towel (that was soaked with tears at the end). The last few centimeters I was in utter horror. They had to push me against the bed as I screamed and then I kept on repeating: STOP! STOP! STOP! NOW! I felt like my entire insides were exploding. I think I would have jumped off that table and ran out, had they not held me down... or at least that was my primal instinct against every rationality. "Easy, easy, we're going back now. You've made it!".

I looked at the monitor seeing the tunnel still in tact (I probably wouldn't have believed it otherwise). They went back as I had gone to being a quivering jelly. I could barely get up as they told me they were done. I couldn't stop crying. The doctor told me that by what he could see, there was nothing to be seen that indicated any infection. That there was nothing out of the ordinary. My mind was screaming; how is it not out of the ordinary?!? That everything was so blocked and filthy, while I had been shitting water for days? While I had been running to the toilet all night, ever since 3 hours after the laxatives? While only a month prior it had been flushed out with 2 liter enema's 4 times!? How is it normal when I'm in so much pain from things I wasn't even supposed to be feeling? When simple enema's burn? I asked him what he advised for my physician and me to do next. Cause if it's not in my colon, than what is it? To which he shrugged and thought it highly unlikely for an ultrasound or anything to get me results...

Even after a toilet visit I was still crying and shaking with pain. My bf was holding me, but it didn't help. The receptionist noticed and called that sweet nurse from before, who immediately arranged for me to lie down in an exam room that wasn't being used that morning. She told me I could lay down as long as I liked, cause this room wouldn't be used for the next few hours. The receptionist got coffee and a chair for my bf. The nurse came to check on me every few minutes. Stood waiting in front of the toilet as I had to go again. She was very nice and comforting me and I finally got hold of my shaking and crying.

Only as she had to go to see another patient and had asked the male who had been responsible for the comforting-part to check on me, the atmosphere changed again within seconds. He asked me to check whether my belly was feeling hard and as I replied no, he "kindly" asked us to leave. To make things worse; he said that IF I should EVER have any complaints at again, I would just have to see my physician. It seemed like the people who have been treating me today, were simply thinking I'm going through these sort of exams for the fun of it. As if I don't have any serious complaints that need to be resolved. The only sane word came from the receptionist; "That much pain can't be normal. Perhaps you should ask your physician to refer you to an OB GYN or something". It's highly frustrating when medics are giving you the attitude; "we can't find it, so there's nothing that needs fixing". Instead of: "you have complaints and either way: we should be making you feel better".

i am not a baby when it comes to pain. Like: I have made it trough a root-canal-treatment of a nerve that wasn't entirely dead, without sedatives, while the pus was flowing from my tooth (and had gone up as well, was discovered later, resulting in a jaw-infection) and I only cried as she first put the drill on my tooth. When I burn myself on a 200 C degree oven, I don't scream or even say "ouch", I calmly go to rinse my skin. My bf has been a bit worried at times of how little I respond to physical pain. While my face doesn't move a muscle I can say: yes, it hurts. But this exam was simply excruciatingly painful.

So I'm at home now; with a constant nagging pain in my lower back and belly. Every move I make hurts and about every half an hour: the cramping starts again. My bf wasn't there yesterday when I took the laxatives, even though I had asked him to be with me, because these have the side-effect of fainting. He only arrived in the middle of the night. But; he was with his mom, so I didn't really blame him. Today; he was really sweet to me in the morning and at the hospital. But he has left me about an hour after he had taken me home. I figured he was sleepy as well; I must have kept him up a bit. I asked him whether he was doing ok and he said "not that much", but wouldn't elaborate on it. He came to check on me in the late afternoon, got me a few groceries and left again. He hadn't been sleeping in the meanwhile; he had gone for a drive, gone for a walk, bought himself dinner at his own place... Which I honestly don't understand. Why he wouldn't just have his salad at my place, to give me just that little bit of extra time, attention and comfort? He did tell me that perhaps we could make dinner together tomorrow and that I shouldn't hesitate to call him, should I need him. Maybe I'm being a spoiled brat now, but I feel very much left alone. About 2 hours ago I wanted to get myself something to eat (my first thing to eat today) out of my refrigerator and I had to get it off the lower shelf. To bending down, it all got cramped up and I've been breathing in and out in front of my refrigerator for some time, before I could get up again. It just feels so unnecessary for such things to happen, when all I would have needed was a simple helping hand...

RedRoses

Posted: 06 Oct 00:07

And THIS is why we get total anesthesia over here.

I do not think you're being a big baby - I think you're ANGRY but have no one to talk it out with.

EvilEvilKitten

Posted: 06 Oct 00:07

Yeah, I'm with EEK. I mean good gravy I was offered a Valium just for the WAITING ROOM when I had my vasectomy 2 months ago!

Firmus

Posted: 06 Oct 00:08

O yes, I am angry. Very ANGRY! I'm NEVER doing this again! I have heard that other countries do this with sedation or total anesthesia as standard procedure. And I'm sure; I'm NEVER doing this again without it! In fact; I think it will take me at least a few years from now, before I won't get the urge to attack anyone who only mentions it. You could say I'm as angry as my insides :mad::rolleyes: And yes; I did need to get this out of my head into communicating it some how. Writing it all down did help :) Thank you guys for reading it.

Come to think of it (after a good night sleep... hell: skip the "good") my bf kept apologizing to me yesterday. At first I thought he was simply sorry for me. But it came out he was actually apologizing. Because he felt as if he had wrongly tried to comfort me, since his experience with this sort of exam was not bad. I was very angry, but my anger wasn't pointed towards him. Yet maybe; he just took it personally.

EDIT: just to keep things a bit light and funny. The male nurse started a conversation to get my mind off the exam; "So you are in school, right?" While focusing on my breathing; No. "Ah, so you're in college?"- No- "Uhm.. graduated???"- with one big breath and a smile: "I've been a working girl for years now". It's so laughable how people can at times really think of me as under 18. Whereas at a job-interview 4 months ago, the interviewer asked me to confirm my year of birth, because according to her: she would have guessed me at least a decade older. I guess I could take either as both an insult and a compliment in one way or another. LOL! :D

RedRoses

Posted: 06 Oct 00:08

LOL @ Firmus!!

EvilEvilKitten

Posted: 06 Oct 00:08

It's funny because it's true. The nurse looked at me like I had a dead cat taped to my face when I turned it down. I must be the bravest man they've seen in a month of Mondays.

I would have missed the great conversations with the doctor doing the procedure. Like when he goes "huh this vein is in the way oh well you don't need it SNIP!!" All that was said and done in one breath! Maybe I did! It was there on it's own accord! I told him "It may not have been the Main Vein, but maybe it was a tributary!"

:D

Firmus

Posted: 06 Oct 00:08